Do you like dags?

[Bazz]

Me and Damien had an arguement in the pub earlier, we tried to talk it out but couldn't agree. We phoned the man of txt, but he agreed with Damien so he's obviously wrong. I'm standing strong and refuse to me talked around but two obviously biased fuckers.
Here's the arguement:
Can a dog be trained to play DDR? I think that it can. If you train a dog from a puppy, one arrow at a time I'm sure it can be done. Here's the method as best I can think of it:
Playing in very basic mode
1) Start with the up arrow, place the dog's paw on the up arrow at the right time, and reward him for it. Then stop helping him, he'll soon work out what he needs to do to get his biscuit/treat.
2) Introduce the second arrow (of your choice) using the same method as before. He'll work out how to get a treat. He may try to cheat by pressing both pads at the same time, if this happens you have to beat him, or he'll develop bad habits.
3) Introduce arrow 3 and 4, if your dog is particularly slow you'll need to do the placing his paws on the pads thing again, but I think most dogs will work it out by themselves at this point.

That's the hard part

4) Now you need to start him playing songs, start with easy ones, and slowly increase the difficulty level.

Don't forget to bribe your dag with treats at all times.

You should now have a DDR capible dog. Go start making money betting asian kids he can beat them. A dog's refelexs are better then ours and he will surely win everytime, and if he loses he can simply attack them and you can escape (asians are scared of dogs).

My arguement was that within 2 years of starting training I could have a dog that can beat Neil (DDR king of Wales 2001) at DDR. Who's with me?

[Damien]

There's no way even the most flukely clever dog could be trained to read the screen and respond propperly.
I would love it if there was but it just will never happen.

And I do like dags

[man of txt]

I like dags too

However I agree with damien. You dont only think that you can train a dog to play DDR, you think that this dog will also be able to beat someone who's exceptionally good. Infact, you reckon that this dog will be better than everone (even myst! )

A dog has four paws so thats an advantage. However its lack of understanding floating arrows and its size compared to a dance mat, and teaching a dog to move in a way that is not natural all adds up to the same conclusion... this is not possible!

[Damien]

I like dags too

However I agree with damien. You dont only think that you can train a dog to beat DDR, you think that this dog will also be able to be someone who's exceptionally food. Infact, you reckon that this dog will be better than everone (even myst! )

I don't know how food Myst is, never seen him play DDR.
I'm sure all the DDRUK furries would love a DDR-palying dog, though.... but maybe they'll be jealous of a rival animal

[man of txt]

Well softrock would beat a dog a DDR any day (unless he had money on himself to lose that is)

[Bazz]

I like dags too
However its lack of understanding floating arrows and its size compared to a dance mat, and teaching a dog to move in a way that is not natural all adds up to the same conclusion... this is not possible!

What's not natural about it? All it needs to do it have one paw on each pad, what's natural about a person playing DDR? Everyone thinks just because we created technology we're the only creature that can use it, don't be so arrogent.
You lot are so wrong. All I'm saying is a dog can play DDR, is that so hard to believe? They can climb mountians and rescue people, they can lead blind people around all day, they can even ride scateboads and stuff (watch you've been framed if that's to crazy for you to believe). I told you how to train it for fucks sake.

[Damien]

There's walking lots and recognising people, then there's identifying a freeze arrow and standing on it for the right period of time, while using other feet to step on different arrows.

[man of txt]

they can even ride scateboads and stuff (watch you've been framed if that's to crazy for you to believe). I told you how to train it for fucks sake

This still doesnt convince me

[Entr0pi3]

I'm not convinced a dog would have the visual ability to clearly identify the arrows on the screen. Their eyes don't work the same as ours. TV screens work at a frequency that is good for human eyes, but is it OK for dog eyes? I'm not sure.
And their eyesight is definetely not as good as ours (can't see some colors, + lower acuity => somewhat shortsighted), so following the arrows moving on the screen (and see when they are synching with the static arrows) would probably be much more difficult and tiring for them.

However, I think you could train a dog to step on a specific arrow on the pad when they hear a specific whistle sound. I guess you could have a special DDR for dogs, with an ultrasound output (so that it doesn't interfere the music - but I don't thing the dog would care much for the songs, actually) instead of the visual output (+ some electric shock in the pad when they make a mistake )
I don't think you can train the dog to memorize the arrow pattern for a whole song, however.

[Slashley]

I voted yes, not because I think it can be done, but because it means disagreeing with Damien

[Damien]

And why would you want to disagree with me? To be wrong?

Dogs eat their own vomet, run from or try to attack their reflections, and love anybody unconditionally. They're stupid by nature.

[Slashley]

No, I want to disagree with you because you're Damien.

[shmack]

Dogs wouldn't be able to play DDR cos the screen is higher than they are, and as we all know, dogs can't look up.

[Bazz]

I'm not convinced a dog would have the visual ability to clearly identify the arrows on the screen. Their eyes don't work the same as ours. TV screens work at a frequency that is good for human eyes, but is it OK for dog eyes? I'm not sure.
And their eyesight is definetely not as good as ours (can't see some colors, + lower acuity => somewhat shortsighted), so following the arrows moving on the screen (and see when they are synching with the static arrows) would probably be much more difficult and tiring for them.

However, I think you could train a dog to step on a specific arrow on the pad when they hear a specific whistle sound. I guess you could have a special DDR for dogs, with an ultrasound output (so that it doesn't interfere the music - but I don't thing the dog would care much for the songs, actually) instead of the visual output (+ some electric shock in the pad when they make a mistake )
I don't think you can train the dog to memorize the arrow pattern for a whole song, however.

Finally, someone who's not afraid to keep an open mind.
I get your point about the eyesight, this was one of the things Damien and I argued about, and I also suggested having 4 different beeps to corrispond to the arrows. Damien said that's cheating though and I'm not allowed to modify the machine.
I think they could see the arrows though, but they'd probably be responding to the horizontal position on the screen of each arrow rather then the shape of them. I think this because dogs bark when they see other dogs on the tele, so must be able to see thing at that frequency.

Secondly, my point about the dog being able to beat Neil within 2 years isn't based on a dog memorising the steps for a song. I think that because of it's superior reflexes, physical stamina, and the benifits to balance of being lower and having 4 legs, the dog would be SO GOOD it wouldn't need to memorise the songs.

Let's not forget that this is a pure DDR dog, trained from birth to only have to know 4 things, up, down, left and right. 4 things isn't too much for a dog to learn in it's intire life surely...

And Shmack, dogs can sooo look up!

[Entr0pi3]

I think a dog's cognitive abilities are sufficient to learn how to play DDR (if taught well), but the game's output needs to be adjusted to their sensitive abilities (which differ quite a lot from ours). It seems to me the most difficult part would be coming up with a system that tells them when their stepping on the arrow is "great", or "perfect", or "boo", etc. (these hints help a lot to correct one's timing and get better at the game). Maybe some additional particular sounds would do? Or some very simple output on the screen? (like lights flashing more or less violently?). This feedback better be pretty straightforward : pleasant stimulus for nice timing, more unpleasant for bad timing (cruelty to animal get's... Although electric shock when the animal makes a mistake could prove quite efficient, I think Pavlovian conditioning that have the dog associate a particular stimulus, like a bell ringing, to something positive, like yummy food, would be nicer. I'd rather treat a dog with carrots than sticks...)

As for physical abilities, I think once the dog knows the aim of the game, and can perceive it signals correctly, it could indeed be quite good. The low center of gravity certainly helps to keep a good balance. However, it seems to me the "virtual space" of the DDR pad is very anthropocentric : the pattern on the floor seems better fitted for an animal standing on two legs, than for one standing on four legs. Dogs seem to be built for running forward (and turning quickly), but I don't think their joints allows them to step sideway like a crab. So they will have to spin a lot to face the right direction and move forward/backward. I guess it will also depend on the size of the dog compared to the pad (especially when it has to step on two arrows simultaneously)... A custom DDR pad optimized for 4 legged animals would probably work better for them (like, an X shape instead of + shape, maybe?)
Also, I'm not sure how good a dog's spatial coordination (and mental representation) is, so some easy landmarks might help (like the arrows on the floor having different scent and/or feeling different when you step on them), so that they don't get dizzy, wondering which direction they're facing.

[Bazz]

Yes, the size of dog is important. For one thing a small dog might not even weigh enough to activate the pads. Damien agreed that if it were possible the best breeds to do it would be Labradors, Alsations, or Rotweilers (sorry for the spelling if it's wrong). These breeds are all big enough to keep one paw on each pad and weigh enough to work them. Also the height of these dogs might make it easier for them to see the screen by turing their heads whilst on the machine. I think the most physically suited dog is actually a boxer, as they're so tall they could probably see the screen without even straining, however from what I know about them boxer dogs are pretty stupid and therefore may not be able to learn the basics of DDR...

[Damien]

We should ask on a canine expert forum for a more knowledgable answer.
Though, they'd probably think we were taking the piss

Crufts 2007 : Legendary Road PAing

[Slashley]

--
And Shmack, dogs can sooo look up!

Especially when begging


The things I doubt most with the DDR dog are:
1. Timing. I truly doubt a dog can learn to step on an arrow when the arrow reaches a certain height. When it sees an arrow, yes, I believe you can train it to step on the corresponding arrow on the floor (not because it knows that the arrows are same but as a reflex, as Bazz mentioned). But... to time it right? I would think that the dog just couldn't get it in the training. It'd understand to step when it seems the up arrow, but it'd get frustrated not knowing when stepping on the pad is a good thing and when it's a bad thing. I doubt their mental capacity.

2. Because the dog can't memorize songs, it'd need to face the screen constantly even if you'd get him trained. The current + is not ideal for dogs, just like you and Entr0pi3 talked. It'd require a modified DDR machine.

3. I doubt their attention span. At times, if the dog grows to really like DDR, sure. I do think he can perform a song if the previous points can be worked around with. But would a dog ever care for three songs? Especially whenever you asked him to? Loud noices and all that.

(4. If you were allowed to modify a machine, I do believe you could get a dog to correspond correctly to sound, as I think somebody previously mentioned. However, I doubt their timing. I don't think you can teach them to step on the arrow EXACTLY one second after the sound, for example. You can teach TO step on it, but I doubt their ability to time it right... I'd think that a dog would step on arrows 0.5s-2s after the sound. And it'd be dumbfounded and frustrated when doing it at times would be right and at times wrong.)

I know that dogs can be trained on visual commands (as for some reason, my friend's dog goes to whereever I point him to ).. but as said, I really doubt their timing.

[Kage]

Some of the greatest scientific minds of our age could possibly be found here.

[man of txt]

Some of the greatest scientific minds of our age could possibly be found here.

[Damien]

I'm sure DDRUK would be only too happy to modify a DDR machine for dogs to play on

[ruroken]

my shoe kicking my uncle's pup's ass

[Garbo]

omg..that is so cute

[man of txt]

I like that pups hair very trendy

[Kage]

I can imagine what the owner looks like.

[Entr0pi3]

Izzat a rat ?

[Slashley]

Rats have much shorter legs. I'd say no.

[man of txt]

it could be a character in pop'n music

[Damien]

Oh god.
You are all really lucky you weren't in Thai Smile when this subject came up on Saturday

[omar sharif]

whats happening with those sausages charlie