Topic 011: The Old College "Why?"

Reiji · Post by **Reiji** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:01 am

(submitted by Vibing_V)

Many of us are young and going to college/university, or planning to in the future.

But what are your reasons for attending institutions of higher learning?

Is it for self-fulfilment and growth?
Pre-requisites for the work world?
Forced upon you by parents?

Is education a means to an end or an end in itself?

TheDarkOne · Post by **TheDarkOne** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:34 am

it wasnt at first about Self-fulfilment and growth, it started out with my parents wanting me to go to college and i was kindof indifferent about the subject, but now having attended college for 2 years and going into my 3rd, i find my self actually looking forward to going to class since i now am able to learn the things i have interest in.

Is education a means to an end, well i dont know, it can be i think that if you take education as soley that you will find yourself hating the education you receive, and im not quite certain what is meant by "an end in itself" is it just there to be there, no i dont think that that's the case either.

as with all institues of education they're not there to provide information, as a matter of fact, i think that is one of the lower agendas by schools. But in fact that schools are a means of social conditioning. They teach you how to act and behave, how to work with other people, and how to compete with other people more than they just provide raw information.

I think that you should take a college education as more than just a means to an end, look at it as a journey, i know it's a cheezy sounding analogy, but really; it's a journey on which you learn all sorts of things that interest you, meet people with the same interests as you, and all sorts of new interactions and processes.

Personally, i love college so far, mainly because it's somewhat a way to dodge responsibility and the real world, but also because there's so much to learn, and so many experiences to be had...

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:21 am

It's difficult to answer that, because for me the reason for going to University has changed over time.

When I finished High School, I really had no idea what I wanted to do for a living, so going to Uni just looked like the easiest option, giving me more time to think about what I really wanted. + unemployment is so high in France that I wouldn't have been able to get a job anyway. And my parents never forced me to go to Uni, but still, I was kinda expected to go there. So I never really thought about any other option.

In first year, I loved Uni, but mainly because it was easy and I could just spend time with friends instead of studying. This first year at Uni was one of the best part of my life. Then for several reason I moved to another Uni for my 2nd and 3rd year, and I started to hate Uni. These years weren't that different from my first year, I still had plenty of free time to have fun with my friends, but lessons were just wayy too boring.

Then I decided that I had enough, and I'm currently using WebCT while working part-time instead of going to Uni. Studying with WebCT is good imo, but I still have to study random things that I don't like and will never be useful at all

But I guess that's just the French system, you can't chose exactly what you want and until the end you've got to study for crap subjects.

But on the other hand some subjects are really interesting so I think I'll keep studying for a while, even though I don't really need to anymore. I just feel like if I stop studying now and start working full time I won't be able to ever go back to studies, and I do enjoy studying some subjects.

So yeah, next year I'll prolly go back to Uni for real, even though I know half of the course is gonna be crap.
But actually the main thing that makes me go back there is that I'll recieve some money to do it. I'll be able to get money for it until I'm 25, so I guess I might as well stay there longer...

I think that the best thing about Uni is that you can spend a lot of time just doing silly things with friends, without having to act as a responsible adult. I really don't feel ready to act like that

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:29 am

End in itself. I don't even know what I'm going to do and I'm by no means sure it will be in the field of physics, and I'm going for my doctorate in it, cause I like it. The end.

Cybernetic Empire · Post by **Cybernetic Empire** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:58 am

For me college is just what you do after high school. The pay increase that the slip of paper carries with it probably helps out too.

Arashi · Post by **Arashi** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:08 am

You know, the questions kinda sounds like one of those essay questions in every college application.

For me, I was always brought up with rule that university is the way to go after HS graduation. I seriously never even thought of stopping and taking a break and I never understood why people would do that. Of course that was when I was young and didn't understand how the world worked.

I don't know, I'm the youngest of three children so my parents stopped pushing me right around the start of HS. But even so, I KNOW I wanted to attend college. I'm a pretty hard worker and have really high standards for myself, so I guess that's the reason.

Okay well, another reason is because I wanna get rich rich rich rich. And I'll do anything and sacrifice everything if that's what it takes for me to reach that goal. The way I see it, college is just one of the first step or something. I don't really care for the whole living up to every moment in college lifestyle. That doesn't mean I don't want to have fun though, I just choose education over my social life.

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:57 pm

what about education + social life? future is overrated anwyay, so you should just enjoy both education AND social life as long as you can imo...

Kneepads, are you gonna get paid to do your doctorate

Entr0pie is paid to do hers, and she told me not to do one unless I get paid for it, what do you think? Is it different in the US? I'd like to do mine outside of France but there's no way I'm going to do one if I've got to pay for Uni fees and I'm not paid in return....

Damn it's hard to type when you're drunk

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:04 am

I'm getting paid yes. I think it depends on the field. In some there is more difficulty obtaining pay than others.

Arashi · Post by **Arashi** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:20 am

Calbrena wrote:what about education + social life? future is overrated anwyay, so you should just enjoy both education AND social life as long as you can imo...

well that works too.

But I can imagine it to be tough. I just don't think I can ever put social life on top of my education.

And I don't know about you guys, for some reason it really bugs the crap out of me if I miss a class. I could careless if I fall asleep in the class or show up late but if I miss it, I kick myself every night for a week. Seriously, there was this lecture NATS class I had last year and I fell alseep in it everyday. in the same seat. while taking notes. But I had 100% attendance in there and that boosted my grade a bit.

Lavos Spawn · Post by **Lavos Spawn** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:40 am

I've gone through four and a half years of college and got a BA in History, but I was never all that interested in the classes I took. I just sort of drifted through school, I didn't realy have any strong motivation or goal in mind, I just went because it was the next step after High School and it was necessary for anything beyond mennial retail work. Was it worth it? I still have no idea what I want to do with my life, so I really can't say whether I got anything out of it, ask me again in five years.

All Burned Up · Post by **All Burned Up** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:18 pm

I am currently attending college to get a cool job. Working at a hardware store my whole life is not something I want, it is merely a cool summer job. Not to mention that biological engineering is by far the coolest major, IMO.

It is a pain in the ass with all the hard class and every semester is a high course load, but I enjoy it. I like learning new things and discussing them with others. Likewise all my friends are engineers and they all feel the same way. It always fun to take your studies outside the book and apply them to life disussing how gravity really works, or what the deal with time travel is, or even how we each envy the other's class.

My parents never said squat to me about attending college. In high school I just got good grades without really doing anything. Then I told them I wanted to be an engineer so we looked for an engineering school. 8 months later I got in and accepted their invitation.

I am really glad I did because always learning makes me feel better about myself, knowning that one day maybe I will be able to help people out in a big way. Not to mention learning how the enitre world/universe works is a rather humbling experience, it helps bring balance when you keep getting the short end of the stick in life. So yeah, learn to grow.

Blue Nocturne · Post by **Blue Nocturne** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:46 pm

In my family it wasn't really an option not to go -- somewhat like a tradition if you will. Everyone was at least expected to get a bachelor's degree at an elite university. Now that I'm finally out of school, I want to go back one day and get a PhD, mainly because I have nothing else to do with my (non)life. Unless I get blown up, then oops.

Lap · Post by **Lap** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:10 am

I wasn't keen on going to university at first, but the idea sank in as I started looking and visiting. When I went I was very happy.
The reasons I went for were to have my independence, to gain some experience and learn something, and to meet new people.

I wasn't disappointed. What pissed me off was the work I had to do to get the grades. I didn't feel that writing reports and then getting a good grade for bluffing it meant I had learnt anything.

So I came out with a pretty lousy grade but feeling like I learnt a lot and it gave me ideas. The independence was great and it boosted my confidence and social skills. Meeting new people is always good, and you learn from them as well.

I wasn't forced to go to university, but I think I was expected to go. I didn't think it would give me a job or get me a higher paycheck in the future. In fact my expectations were pretty low.
I'm glad I went, and most people I speak to say the same.

MegaManX · Post by **MegaManX** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:02 am

While I havent started College yet(start evening classes next week), I do beleive that as long as you find a place to apply your education, it'll be important beyond words.

Now why did I decide to finally start? Well, three of the four questions qualify for why I started.

Lets start with self-fulfilment and growth. I love to learn, I always want to know more. If you could ask anyone I work with, they could tell you that I always play 20 questions when I don't know something. To me knowledge is important for two reasons. One reason is so you broaden you knowlege and concept of things. Take my joining the military for example. Before I joined I kneew what an Apache was, that it used hellfire missles, and that I thought it was cool. Over the time I've been in, I've learned a lot about helicopter theory, how all the systems on an AH-64D Longbow Apache work, and how to properly maintain its systems. This is growth to me and in turn that growth equates to self-fulfillent.

The second reason is respect. I'm not saying that being smart means that people will 'automagically' respect you. I do beleive, however, that a man that is knowledgable in many things and kind to other will garner more respect then just a kind man. Reason being that the knowledgable man has something more to offer and help others with. Further more, in a workplace, the more knowledgeable a person is in his, or her field, the more respect they will get from their co-workers(Well most, but we'll save office backstabbing and jealousy for another day) and superiors. If I am a supervisor/manager, I'll more likely put the person on a job who knows what they are doing.

On to the next question, pre-requisite for the work world. Because I am trying to become a commissioned officer in the Army, then yes, college is extremely important to me. Right now, I am trying to build up 27(36 just to be safe) credits for a 3 year scholarship in the Green to Gold program(PM me if you want to know what this is, I'll give links that explain it better then me). Right now because of Basic Training and my job AIT, I'm sitting on 16 credits, still got a few to go.

And I guess means to an end ties in with what I said above as well.

Anywho, backt to work with me, I think I hear a 30mm gun that needs to be fixed.

Renge Ishyo · Post by **Renge Ishyo** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:11 am

I do beleive, however, that a man that is knowledgable in many things and kind to other will garner more respect then just a kind man. Reason being that the knowledgable man has something more to offer and help others with.

But by that same token, if you compare someone who is kind and has a large collection of rare indian coins to another man who is just kind, he too would get more recognition due to the coins

MegaManX · Post by **MegaManX** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:58 am

True but indian coins don't do much for you at work.(unless you some dude on the corner of the street peddling Indian coins...and smut....lots of smut.)

Renge Ishyo · Post by **Renge Ishyo** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:45 am

Nobody can underestimate the value of porn in the military

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:04 pm

MegaManX wrote:The second reason is respect. I'm not saying that being smart means that people will 'automagically' respect you. I do beleive, however, that a man that is knowledgable in many things and kind to other will garner more respect then just a kind man. Reason being that the knowledgable man has something more to offer and help others with. Further more, in a workplace, the more knowledgeable a person is in his, or her field, the more respect they will get from their co-workers(Well most, but we'll save office backstabbing and jealousy for another day) and superiors. If I am a supervisor/manager, I'll more likely put the person on a job who knows what they are doing.

Hmm... Yeah, knowledge. Sometimes, a bit overrated. Especially purely academic knowledge. I've seen so-called knowledgeable persons getting much contempt and hatred from their co-workers, not out of jealousy, but because the know-it-all didn't realize all that theoretical knowledge they had accumulated in college/university, didn't necesserally means they knew better what to do in realistic situations, than the guys who had acquired some much more down-to-earth knowledge from years of experience.
Knowledge is good, but to learn is one thing, to experience is another, and both are required to claim one really knows something.

During my childhood years, I've been taught quite early the value of "book knowledge". Accumulating and processing information was a fun goal in itself... Did great in school, and went to College, since it's where all skilled kids go. Some highs and downs later, I'm finally about to leave (since there isn't much left to do after a PhD anyway... except another PhD in another field of study? Ah... Somewhat tempting... But it's time to get a real job now)
When I think about it, I realized only quite recently the great importance of "non-book knowledge" - which I had simply never been taught : learning to do, by actually doing things, instead of mostly "reading about" => sounds so obvious it's a bit silly. But as people quit College to enter "real life", they often realize when they arrive at their workplace that there are lots of things here they were totally untrained for. And I personally realized that the qualities that might set me apart from my coworkers (and potential competitors on the job-market...), and make my input more valuable, are the things I assimilated outside of college - or inside college, but had little to do with what was written on the blackboard (because fortunately, one always learns by experience, even when you don't realize it, or when you don't realize how important it is).
Everyone can read books. But what a person can actually do (=> especially create) by itself, with both its own head and hands, makes the difference in the end.

Renge Ishyo · Post by **Renge Ishyo** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:57 am

Knowledge is different from thinking. Thinking takes place when there is an absence of knowledge, and it requires a completely different mindset when compared with the mindset of a student. When you are a student, you are merely studying what other thinkers have thought and (for the most part) success comes from repeating their results and not necessarily the thought process that lead them to such conclusions. Not that those results can't help you...it's just that that the actual skill you need to develop for the real world, the ability to think for yourself, is NOT given to you in school. In the end, if you can't think for yourself, all the stored knowledge in the world is about as useful as an encyclopedia that cannot be opened...it just sits there unless an effort is made to interpret and apply the knowledge within. From my experiences this is why Philosophy, or more precisely parts of it that teach you to understand and interpret motivations on your own, is such a very important area of study that is (unfortunately) underemphasized in most majors (because governments want you to "learn" by obeying authority unfortunately, and not by thinking for yourself as an individual).

I always joke that learning how to do science in school is like learning how to play baseball by filling out score sheets. If I hadn't had some real world experience before going back to college, I'd probably be going insane right now

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:49 am

Renge Ishyo wrote:Knowledge is different from thinking.

Most obviously. That's why people with knowledge are called "educated", while people who think are called "intelligent". One can be both, or just one, or none...
[spoiler=vocabulary point]I didn't write "people who know", because I'm unsure of the exact meaning of that verb in English. It seems to cover the meaning of (at least) two separate verbs in French. "to know" = "savoir" (which is also the name for knowledge), like in "I know the capital of Russia is Moscow, I've seen it on TV", and "to know = connaître", like in "I know that city very well, I've visited it so many times"[/spoiler]

Sometimes they do teach you the art of "thinking" in school. Especially critical thinking : "So, the author in that text says that. Do you agree/disagree, and why? Write a dissertation on that subject."
But "text commenting" and "argumentative discussions" is an exercise mostly done in literature class. You won't discuss a math theorem, or a physical equation (unless you're doing a math or a physics PhD, but isn't that a bit late to start exercising your thinking-by-yourself abilities ? Most people will never go that far in their studies, and will never question such things), and it's quite a pity.
Exercises requiring creative thinking are even more of a rarity (except in art class, of course. And even here people mostly just follow classic guidelines). Maybe because they're is no "receipe" for creativity, that you could write down in a book? (Although I've seen books claiming they can teach you so, in the local library. But I doubt their efficiency...).
In France, everyone is taught "Philosophy" in their last highschool years. I thought it was pretty cool, but most student think the only point of that stuff is (like everything you do at school) getting good grades. And most of them also think that to get good grades you must insert a lot of quotes from famous philosophers in your work. Which doesn't work, that's how most people I know got 8/20 or so at their highschool graduation exam.
And the closest thing to "exercising creative (and critical) thinking" in sciences I've seen, was a class called "experimental sciences" I had in my "last-1" highschool year. It was lab work, guided by the teacher of course : he had us told ourselves some question, like "when plants grow, why do they (usually) point up? Is it because of where the light comes from, is it gravity, or something else?". And we were left to make some hypopthesis, and devise experiences to prove or disprove them. I thought that was great. But some students felt unconfortable with it. It's easier to just repeat what you've been told, than being left to discover it by yourself. The funny thing is I don't remember the result of the experiments

. But I remember the method, and I guess that was the point.

Anyway, it wasn't just the difference between "knowledge" and "thinking" I was thinking about in my previous post. But rather, that learning is a process which involves the mind, but also sometimes the body, and this part shouldn't be underestimated.
My driving instructor told me one day "your problem, Alice, is that you think too much". I thought it was pretty insulting, because it called into question all the things I believed in : knowledge is good, thinking is good, how could one "think too much"? But like you said, thinking is the tool used by the ones who don't know. And once you know something for sure, you'll be much more efficient if you stop thinking about of each step, over-detailling every move in your head. It seems to me this is especially true for things involving physical activities, such as driving (or walking), or playing the piano (or typing on a keyboard), and so on.
Some people don't like having to think, but some other indeed think "too much", sometimes. They could more easily let go of the unnecessary thinking if they trusted (realized?) their body's ability to learn some moves, and repeat them intelligently (reflex can be amazing, sometimes : before you realized that glass was falling, shazam, your hand extends to catch it before it reaches the floor), without requiring any "bossing around" (Conscious brain: "you should do that. Then that. Then that. And... oOoh, watch your step!". Body parts: "we know our job, and our nervous system is perfectly set up already, so stop interfering!") from the conscious part of the brain.
"Cable logic" is faster than "software processing", and, in some situations, even more reliable.

Renge Ishyo · Post by **Renge Ishyo** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:58 pm

And the closest thing to "exercising creative (and critical) thinking" in sciences I've seen, was a class called "experimental sciences" I had in my "last-1" highschool year. It was lab work, guided by the teacher of course : he had us told ourselves some question, like "when plants grow, why do they (usually) point up? Is it because of where the light comes from, is it gravity, or something else?". And we were left to make some hypopthesis, and devise experiences to prove or disprove them. I thought that was great. But some students felt unconfortable with it. It's easier to just repeat what you've been told, than being left to discover it by yourself. The funny thing is I don't remember the result of the experiments

That is what I envision school should be like if it was done properly. The instructor has a basic understanding of what he is asking you to learn, but he puts you in a situation where you have to ask questions and not just accept solutions. As an example of accepting solutions, the standard line is plants in general do grow upwards in order to increase the number of leaves on the body that can gather sunlight. The evidenence that the purpose of leaves is to gather sunlight to produce products is in the chemical processes (the top side of leaves is where all the photosynthesis pigments are, whereas the bottom side are typically where the reproductive organs are, hence the top side always needs to face up on such plants regardless of how the stock grows... in areas where the sun is low on the horizon or the ground is at a pretty steep slope, you can actually get pictures of trees with their stocks bent off at an angle so that they can keep the leaves pointed at the sun).

Is that the end of the story? No, there are a million questions you can ask about plant growth...like why did they decide to grow up in most instances and not spread out from the ground (especially because the height at which land plants grow makes it so that many need to rely on a specialized water vascular system to "pump" water up from the ground)? Why produce flimsy little leaves instead of a bigger sturdier satellite dish like collector for light? What about gravity? Is there some reason that plants would grow upwards against it? Would there be another way to work with gravity that would be more advantageous? Why don't plants follow that model? And so on.

Socrates, the great thinker said something along the lines of, "Know ye that ye know nothing." It doesn't seem like he was undervaluing knowledge per say, but merely revealing that the thinking process can only start when you start to question the knowledge you already have. Of course, by that same token he was killed for teaching people this...

I don't mean to belittle the school system, obviously if I am putting the effort into it I do believe it is valuable in certain respects (you could never learn the sheer amount of insights you get from school by thinking about things strictly by yourself for your short lifespan). At the same time, school doesn't make you a genius nor is it the be all end all to developing the mind that people expect it to be.

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Topic 011: The Old College "Why?"

Topic 011: The Old College "Why?"

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