The Draft - Will it be reinstated?

[Shinji Hiryu]

Jesus, I just spent like 3 hours piling over this stuff. Wheres the time machine to take those 3 hours back?

That retard Marty left it on the tracks to get hit by a train

But seriously, I agree with what Reiji said that the possibility of a draft being reinstated is quite real. I'm not sure how noticable it is on the mainland, but here in Hawaii, reserve units are being activated left and right. Insanity.

As for pulling out of Iraq... *shrug* not that easy I suppose. I agree, it would've been best if we hadn't and continued trailing Osama. If anything, I'd want our country (US) to at least "see things through." Finish the shit you start. Nevermind the "know when to back off." Besides, if the US ditched now, don't you think our (already low) image within the world would decrease even more? Anyway, I'll admit I'm pretty much niave to most of the issues so I'll leave it at that. I hate watching the news already

[Patchingko]

If I recall, part of the reason we attacked Iraq besides the whole WMD thing, was he was supposedly helping Bin Laden. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but I believe that was part of the reason they went there in the first place, then they said he had WMD later, and now we are still there for what some people seem to think is we want their oil. Wouldn't surprise me.

Arnold in '08? I'd vote for him.

Well, you're in part right. Bush told us that it was because of WMDs at first, then started including that it was because Saddam was helping Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.

Then his administration and others admitted that there was never any evidence of Saddam having any but loose contacts with Al Qaeda (which is very likely, because Saddam was not anti-US, he was pro-Saddam-ruling-the-entire-Middle-East). Saddam and Al Qaeda's goals have never coincided, so this was just blatant lies in an attempt to take advantage of the post-9/11 mindset of the masses. And it worked and is still working like a charm.

Then his administration admitted finally that there was never solid evidence of WMDs and that they were invading based on false intelligence that they thought reliable. That, combined with the number of people from the Bush administration to resign and admit that from day 1 that they were trying conciously to figure out a way to invade Iraq and oust Saddam, makes it obvious that this too was simply another falsehood peddled on the public and Congress.

And Bush manages to avoid responsibility and claim that John Kerry (or any potential Congressional opponent) is a flip-flopper when in reality, the public was so mindlessly frightened by Bush administration scare tactics such as claims of WMDs, claims of links to Al Qaeda, "Terror Alert Levels," terror drills, etc. that very few in Congress could have conciously voted against the invasion with knowledge that their constituency was in favor of it.

Iraq is basically a perfectly crafted ploy for Bush and his administration to take over another country for whatever their own purposes. They managed to maneuver the issue so that they can pan his competition for it while making it look like they're the good guys, ensuring that they'll be in control for another four years to seal the deal.

This is why John Kerry was such a horrible choice for the Democratic nominee. Unfortunately the Democratic party leadership and Dems in general are simply too blind to see the forest for the trees, though.

The way I see it, with a candidate as weak as John Kerry, the fact that he's still even with Bush in spite of the perfect setup Bush has and the endless propaganda he spews forth that people actually believe shows how much people actually dislike Bush. There is a fundamental problem with a governmental system that would give the most powerful seat to man that nearly half the people despise, I think.

And yes, I would vote for Arnold. I think he would be extremely popular. One thing's for sure, he wouldn't take shit from anyone and would do what he thinks is right without any bullcrap.

To those girlymen in Congress:

:frank

[Lord Golbez]

Arnold is too Republican, and by "too," mean he has a Republican affiliation.

[Phil]

This is why John Kerry was such a horrible choice for the Democratic nominee. Unfortunately the Democratic party leadership and Dems in general are simply too blind to see the forest for the trees, though.

The way I see it, with a candidate as weak as John Kerry, the fact that he's still even with Bush in spite of the perfect setup Bush has and the endless propaganda he spews forth that people actually believe shows how much people actually dislike Bush. There is a fundamental problem with a governmental system that would give the most powerful seat to man that nearly half the people despise, I think.

That's what I never got, if everyone really dislikes Kerry that much, why did they even choose him as their candidate in this election. Could they not have better results with a stronger candidate? Or do they think Bush will win because of all his "supporters" out there will re-elect him.

I have to say, since this is the first year I can vote, I'm not sure who I want. My parents are all in favor of Bush and try to push me towards voting Bush too but I won't unless I find my own reasons for doing so. Right now though Kerry might get my vote, however I'm not sure still. This election will be an interesting one to say the least and I'm not sure many people will be satisfied no matter how this turns out.

[Doom]

This thread is a whole lot friendlier than... well I won't finish that thought.

[TO]

well ive said it before and ill say it again. everyone NEEDS to vote for this guy

http://www.vote-smart.org/bio.php?can_id=BZZ91748

[Lavos Spawn]

I too used to think that the war in Iraq was a red herring, a foolish whim that had no solid backing, but when you think about it ther is a good deal of logic behind it, even if hindsight has defeaated it.

The war on terror is not your typical war. Satelite states during the cold war, rouge states duing the nineties, we're used to dealing with traditional warfare, we've got bombs so accurate that we can shoot a missle between an Immams's(sp?) buttcheeks without leaving any skid marks... if we know wher they are. But terrorists don't stand out like soldiers, they have no one country, they look like the rest of the population, they don't use regular millitary tactics, and are always elusive. It's much harder to fight these kinds of wars, and it's much harder to see direct results. That's why Afganistan was so convenient, it was both a terrorist hot bed, and a traditonal opponent like the ones we're used to fighting, we could giht teh war on terror the way we fight best.

Before 9/11, Saddam Hussein was public enemy number one. For nigh on a decade he cleverly toyed with the UN: we knew he had chemical weapons, he used them, we gave them to him, and so he was able to bait us. He became the fly we couldn't swat, our worst and most dangerous enemy, all simply as a way to further solidify his own position in the world. None of that chenged when Osama took the number one spot. Saddam was still there, and he still seemed like a threat, that's why he was a logical target. Itwas ratehr smart actually, not only could they elliminate our number 2 bad guy, but they could do it with tradtional warfare, and show real, tangible results of the success of the war on terror, it could even give us a foothold in the middle east to further our goals. It woudl be Afganistan 2.0. Plus, there were pleanty of people in the government and the millitary who wanted to take down Sadam, something they dreamed about for decades.

However, Bush royally screwed everything up but lying and using falsified information to make his case, and detracting our focus away from Bin ladden and the other terrorists. I don't fault him for beleiving that Sadam had WMDs--everyone thought he had them--but his haste caused a lot of problems. Poor planning and leadership has left Iraq a cesspool of violence that will only get worse, it's had the opposite effect of what it was supposed to. Invading Iraq wan't random nor irrelevent, but it was born out of arrogance, ignorance, and recklessness, and reflects badly on Bush as a president, especially since he won't admit that he made any mistakes. Maybe I'm givving him too much credit, but invading Iraq wan't such a bad idea, he was just the wrong person to do it.

[Erithial]

Ive read of over all the posts here and I believe that you all hold both well thought and valid opinions on the matter, But through all of this I believe one thing above all does hold true.


Arnold Schwarzenegger



And Sylvester Stallone



In the year of 2008, Resistance is futile.

[Brody]

Concerning WMD: If a cop calls a drug dealer and says to him, "We are coming to your residence to rid you of your illegal narcotics in 48 hours." do you think he'll hide them somewhere in his house?

No.

He would most likely move tehm to another house in the neighborhood. Say on... Syria St.

[j0hn Ayanami]

Concerning WMD: If a cop calls a drug dealer and says to him, "We are coming to your residence to rid you of your illegal narcotics in 48 hours." do you think he'll hide them somewhere in his house?

No.

He would most likely move tehm to another house in the neighborhood. Say on... Syria St.

Yeah, he's totally got the constant planes that were flying over, taking pictures fooled completely! I mean, you can defenitely move WMD materials out of the country when you have the US watching you so closely that it mistakes factories to be WMD plants.

[Lord Golbez]

Chocolate chip factories:?

[Patchingko]

That's what I never got, if everyone really dislikes Kerry that much, why did they even choose him as their candidate in this election. Could they not have better results with a stronger candidate? Or do they think Bush will win because of all his "supporters" out there will re-elect him.

After Howard Dean dropped out of the picture, nobody else had a chance. The Dems thought a war hero would be the perfect counter to Bush's poor service record, so they pushed Kerry from the start, especially since Gen. Clark, regardless of his military history, wasn't liberal enough.

Concerning WMD: If a cop calls a drug dealer and says to him, "We are coming to your residence to rid you of your illegal narcotics in 48 hours." do you think he'll hide them somewhere in his house?

No.

He would most likely move tehm to another house in the neighborhood. Say on... Syria St.

This justification would have worked if Saddam had WMDs... but he didn't. Bush admitted it and we've never found any. We had endless surveilance over that desert nation since the early '90s, and attacked swiftly this time--too swiftly for Saddam to have moved any WMDs elsewhere without our knowledge. I know it's hard to believe the UN inspectors didn't find anything because there were none there, but... there it is.

Sufficed to say, I don't blame people who believed the President when he assured us that Iraq had WMDs, but I do blame him and his administration for lying to us about it. If you insist on believing that Bush wasn't lying, you should at least be upset at him for basing a US invasion of a sovereign nation that has cost countless American lives on "faulty info".

Lavos Spawn: I pretty much agree with what you said. If Bush had just gone up to Congress and said "I want to oust Saddam Hussein because he tortures his people, produces weapons with the intent of invading his neighbors, and overall is a ruthless dictator," I would have no problem with it, if Congress voted to allow him to enter.

However, I have a huge problem with the scare tactics Bush's administration used on the US public to get them to allow him to do anything he wanted. I mean, turn Arabs into Jews and you've got the start of Nazi Germany right here. That kind of crap doesn't fly with me, and it offends me as an American that he took advantage of the fear produced by 9/11 that way.

As for Saddam being enemy #2... according to people who left Bush's administration, he was always enemy #1, even after Bin Laden became #1 in most people's minds. Bush's people were always looking for ways to twist the event to work against Saddam, and they figured out how--put fear into the hearts of enough Americans and they can do anything they want. Saddam was "evil," so we throw out a few scary words like "WMD" and "axis of evil" and can get away with anything.

[Kage]

It is all about oil as far as I am concern and it is still. Nobody is that magnanimous as to want to rid the world of anything unless it is in your own backyard or you see possibilities of financial gain. Bush have demonstrated a lack of morals as far as I am concern. Oh I forgot. He is an idiot too.

[Shuzo Ru]

I tend to agree with the consensus here that the draft either will not happen or is unnecessary, for the reasons already given. (I refuse to repeat what others have said, as it is just plain lame).

However, I do believe strongly that we are not welcome in Iraq (hence the deaths), and it follows that of you're not welcome in someone's house, you get out. If they want to self destruct, let them do it without our blood. We'll just come in in a few years and mop up the mess (and the oil). They obviously don't know what the hell they are doing (the puppet govt. they have there), and personally I'm sick of hearing of our soldiers bearing the brunt of their stupidity.

[Calbrena]

This thread reminds me, in a tv show in France we've had Stallone as one of the main character for more than 10 years, playing rougthly the role of the guy who rules the US/the world. Now that would be funny if we had Arnie vs Sylvie in '08

[Kage]

That is a frightening thought. An android vs a mumblling ex boxer.

[WaWard]

This thread reminds me, in a tv show in France we've had Stallone as one of the main character for more than 10 years, playing rougthly the role of the guy who rules the US/the world. Now that would be funny if we had Arnie vs Sylvie in '08

Is the same actor that voices his dubs voicing this? Sylverster Stalonne dubs > you.

[Calbrena]

Ward: Not sure it's the same guy, but he sounds the same in this show, because that guy is really good at changing his voice. btw, do you have les guignols de l'info in Canada? If not you should dl some of their stuff now...It's not that good anymore, but stuff from the beginning are great

Anyway, yeah, Stalone dub ownz

[Schadenfreude]

What you have to understand is that the only way that the draft will be reinstated is if a majority of the members of Congress decide that they are willing to endanger their own children's lives. Which is not going to happen any time soon. No matter how stupid our Congress may be with giving the President war powers and such, they will hopefully be more careful with their near future decisions..

And people may say for the sake of argument that Congress decided upon a levee en masse during the Vietnam War, thus it is possible that it could happen again with Iraq. As Zell mentioned though 1,000 soldiers is a great loss, it is inconsequential when compared to the overall picture of the number of professional troops that we have.

[Schadenfreude]

Concerning WMD: If a cop calls a drug dealer and says to him, "We are coming to your residence to rid you of your illegal narcotics in 48 hours." do you think he'll hide them somewhere in his house?

No.

He would most likely move tehm to another house in the neighborhood. Say on... Syria St.

Actually it would be more like the cop calling the drug dealer and telling him to prove to him that he really had no drugs. Now the drug dealer can't do this without showing him drugs and thus getting arrested, or he'll get arrested for not proving that he is innocent. That is the beauty of being innocent before proven guilty. You just can not prove that you do not have something when you don't have it. An inspection of the entire country perhaps? Now what sovreign nation, especially one run by a mad dictator would want some other country meddling on its soil? And also perhaps it should be mentioned that you can not inspect every single square yard of Iraq, thus that plan is impossible to truly prove anything.

Do you think that Syria would accept WMD's? The Syrian government is not a bunch of complete nicompoops no matter how hard they try to instill that image into our heads.

If you want some information as to the search for WMD's I would highly suggest the rather lengthy but very informative testimony of David Kay before the House Select Committee on Intelligence on October 2, 2003.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/s ... 22003.html


You must always remember there is a definitive difference between actually having WMD's and having plans to make them.

[Lord Golbez]

What you have to understand is that the only way that the draft will be reinstated is if a majority of the members of Congress decide that they are willing to endanger their own children's lives. Which is not going to happen any time soon. No matter how stupid our Congress may be with giving the President war powers and such, they will hopefully be more careful with their near future decisions..

Oh isn't that precious. He thinks the members of Congress are law abiding citizens who will play nicely.

[Craddyshack]

What you have to understand is that the only way that the draft will be reinstated is if a majority of the members of Congress decide that they are willing to endanger their own children's lives. Which is not going to happen any time soon. No matter how stupid our Congress may be with giving the President war powers and such, they will hopefully be more careful with their near future decisions..

Thats why we have songs from the Vietnam era that go "It aint me, it aint me, I aint no senator's son." The draft does not affect politicians.

[Kage]

Yup, I would like to see those politicians and their sons at ground zero in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Schadenfreude]

The optimist sees the rose and not its thorns; they pessimist stares at the thorns, oblivious of the rose.
~Kahlil Gibran

[Lord Golbez]

Really, because I would think an authentic optimist would see the thorns and say, okay we can take care of them.

[Questionmarktarius]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134546,00.html

The entire push for a draft this time was coming entirely from the left. Apparently they're getting all pissy that only "poor" people enlist.

[Lord Golbez]

ROFL! That's ridiculous. Although it does piss me off that the military uses financial support for education as a means of recruiting.

[Patchingko]

www.foxnews.com

THIS IS A NO-SPIN ZONE!

[Questionmarktarius]

THIS IS A NO-SPIN ZONE!

Wow. Check out the CNN version:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/ ... index.html

FoxNews:
Rangel, however, did not act like he was kidding. He has been a vocal proponent of the draft, claiming that only mandatory national service would alleviate what he says are disproportionate numbers of working-class people and members of minority groups serving in the military.

CNN:
Just two lawmaker, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., and Rep. Pete Stark, D-Calif., struck off on their own and voted for the measure.

"We are in a war, and not only a small segment of the population should fight in that war," said Murtha.

[Patchingko]

Haha, exactly. Let someone try to say that either of those sites/channels are unbiased and then show them that. They'll spin anything to fit their own political agendas.

[Schadenfreude]

Report concludes no WMD in

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm

"Iraq had no stockpiles of biological, chemical or nuclear weapons before last year's US-led invasion, the chief US weapons inspector has concluded."

Headline on BBC News....

[j0hn Ayanami]

*gasp* Really?! Breaking news

[Tyr]