HOT FFVII REMAKE NEWS - yes a thread that’s on topic

[Cybernetic Empire]

I literally haven't touched a videogame since the credits rolled on this on April 16th. I hated the last hour of this that much and it's completely killed my enthusiasm for the rest of the project. It was utter nonsense and completely killed the stakes of anything in the OG that's supposed to come after this. It's depressing to think about when everything preceding the end showed they actually could make a quality remake of VII while changing things up and keeping it fresh (minus the contrived plot ghosts).

[Lord Golbez]

I often waited to be knocked down to initiate casting a spell to avoid having it canceled.

Perfect is the enemy of good and FFVII Remake is the best FF since X. Game was pure Squaresoft quality. I still can't believe it. The ghost of my FF fandom is knocking on my hearts door.

Honestly, despite the terrible direction of chapter 18, I basically agree with it, which is why the ending was such a shame.

[HKK]

I literally haven't touched a videogame since the credits rolled on this on April 16th. I hated the last hour of this that much and it's completely killed my enthusiasm for the rest of the project. It was utter nonsense and completely killed the stakes of anything in the OG that's supposed to come after this. It's depressing to think about when everything preceding the end showed they actually could make a quality remake of VII while changing things up and keeping it fresh (minus the contrived plot ghosts).

The entire game they built up to that moment so the idea that "everything preceding it" was good but that wasn't makes no sense. Sephiroth's motivations aside, Wedge survived the plate fall. You didn't find that odd? That shows *massive* implications towards the plot. The whole game they built it up that this isn't your standard FFVII. I'm not sure how anyone could play it and think things would be the same leading up to the eventual confrontation with the Plot Ghosts given they're the most impactful element in the story. Once Wedge survived I started to mentally prepare myself that this wasn't the same FFVII. I'm not sure how other veterans didn't have the same mindset. Wedge is *supposed* to die. That's his fate.

[Lord Golbez]

The "build up" was bad too, but they really leaned into that shit in such an unnecessary way at the end. Anything with the plot ghosts was bad, but it wasn't until the plate collapse that the serious issues started and even with that the quality was so good throughout that it was kind of possible to put it out of your head until the next time the stupid spectres reared.their ugly heads.

[HKK]

Only time plot ghosts show up is when someone messes with time. You can say in your head "oh that's a minor change" but once Wedge survives all bets are off. That's a *massive* fucking change.

Honestly I take more issue with the use of Sephiroth than Plot Ghosts, but then Seph is precisely why the Plot Ghosts are there to begin with, it appears. I think the game does a good job proving how much of a bad villain Sephiroth is in general. But I've always felt that way.

At least with the theories going around, such as the idea that the Sephiroth in the game is Seph from the future and doesn't want to die, which necessitates the Plot Ghosts to come forth as a defense mechanism of the planet, it makes sense. Much better than "Mother. Cetra. Ancients. Gast. Reunion." Sephiroth from the original. What a bad, limited character.

[Lord Golbez]

No one is complaining about whether the changes are minor or not. The issue isn't shit like whether Wedge survives (which to be honest isn't necessarily all that major a change anyway, since Wedge is a minor character in the original and the effect of 2 out of 3 of Barret's crew dying is pretty much the same). It's the fact that the plot ghosts are involved in the ways things happen at all.

[Damien]

By the plate thing, I could tell the story was going to play out differently. Honestly, that’s what kept me playing so much. Knowing that there were going to be some bit upsets and after thinking for years that it’d be a standard remake of part of a game I’ve played numerous times, it could still surprise me and still be spoiled for me.
Perhaps part of it is that I read people talking about how terrible the ending was for a week before I reached the ending, but i didn’t find the ending terrible at all. Makes me much more keen for an eventual sequel than leaving it at that part of the original would have.

[Cid]

Much better than "Mother. Cetra. Ancients. Gast. Reunion." Sephiroth from the original. What a bad, limited character.

Yes much worse than "Fate. Destiny. Fate. Planet. Fate."

[Cybernetic Empire]

I literally haven't touched a videogame since the credits rolled on this on April 16th. I hated the last hour of this that much and it's completely killed my enthusiasm for the rest of the project. It was utter nonsense and completely killed the stakes of anything in the OG that's supposed to come after this. It's depressing to think about when everything preceding the end showed they actually could make a quality remake of VII while changing things up and keeping it fresh (minus the contrived plot ghosts).

The entire game they built up to that moment so the idea that "everything preceding it" was good but that wasn't makes no sense. Sephiroth's motivations aside, Wedge survived the plate fall. You didn't find that odd? That shows *massive* implications towards the plot. The whole game they built it up that this isn't your standard FFVII. I'm not sure how anyone could play it and think things would be the same leading up to the eventual confrontation with the Plot Ghosts given they're the most impactful element in the story. Once Wedge survived I started to mentally prepare myself that this wasn't the same FFVII. I'm not sure how other veterans didn't have the same mindset. Wedge is *supposed* to die. That's his fate.

I don't get why people fall back on this notion that if someone didn't like the ending, they didn't notice or didn't get what the plot ghosts were alluding to in the preceding 95% of the story. I believe what I said was fairly clear, but let me try again. Them making some of these minor changes/additions to the story was mostly enjoyable. The deep dive into Midgar, game play, characterizations, character moments, set pieces, music, etc were mostly enjoyable. What wasn't enjoyable, and what instilled a sense of dread in me personally as I progressed further into the game, were what specifically ended up culminating at that last hour.

At no point was I ever intrigued by the plot ghosts. In every instance they were a distraction from what should have been iconic, memorable moments. Instead they knock you out of an immersive experience with the subtlety of a brick to the head. Up until the church, my response was to be annoyed and wonder why the hell they were even added and where it was all going. [spoiler]After the first Reno fight where they show up and save Aerith from falling[/spoiler] I literally said out loud, "Oh No..." It only got worse from there in every imaginable way. So, yes. I too was mentally preparing myself for the "This ain't yo daddy's FFVII" while trying my best to compartmentalize the plot ghosts and get lost in the enjoyment of the rest of the game. Unfortunately, I didn't fathom that it would be as hamfisted, dumb, and unnecessary as it ended up being.

It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp that people were digging the game up until the "contrivance" and that when they state this, they are also lumping every intrusive appearance of the plot ghosts and their impact on the game up to that point. If they scrubbed all that shit out, the game would have still been great, it wouldn't have split the fan base, and (more than likely) wouldn't have lead to noticeably lower sales of future installments. It's the Genesis situation in Crisis Core all over again, only magnified and much much worse.

Nomuraesque fan fiction belongs in Kingdom Hearts. It doesn't belong in a game with an established story with specific themes woven throughout. Doubly insulting is that the remake was marketed as an expanded/slightly changed (not one for one) but mostly faithful retelling for the modern age. I was on board for that, as well as a ton of other people. Instead, we got SE's worst hits in the span of an hour:

[spoiler]Nomura's big heartless boss + FATE

Toriyama's ending from FFXIII where the characters do an about face, start spewing nonsense about fate, and end up doing things for "reasons"

Cloud and gang powering up to Advent Children levels somehow and going toe to toe with Sephiroth.

Time travel that was never even remotely hinted at in the OG, but will became the crux of the remake and its sequels (FFXIII and Toriyama rear their shitty selves once again).[/spoiler]

Where do you even go from here honestly? People really think modern SE has what it takes to bring this new story direction to a satisfactory end? The FFXIV team notwithstanding, they certainly haven't earned that trust, so where is it coming from? Nomura hasn't finished/delivered anything remotely satisfying in a decade and a half. So I am extremely perplexed why, seemingly, a lot of people are onboard for this new direction. If people (and the developers) were thirsty for something new, then FFXVI was the answer. Not this.

[HKK]

Much better than "Mother. Cetra. Ancients. Gast. Reunion." Sephiroth from the original. What a bad, limited character.

Yes much worse than "Fate. Destiny. Fate. Planet. Fate."

I'm pretty sure Sephiroth has like four lines in the remake and he definitely doesn't talk like this at all.

Sephiroth sucks anyways.

[Damien]

Cid have you played the remake yet?

[HKK]

I literally haven't touched a videogame since the credits rolled on this on April 16th. I hated the last hour of this that much and it's completely killed my enthusiasm for the rest of the project. It was utter nonsense and completely killed the stakes of anything in the OG that's supposed to come after this. It's depressing to think about when everything preceding the end showed they actually could make a quality remake of VII while changing things up and keeping it fresh (minus the contrived plot ghosts).

The entire game they built up to that moment so the idea that "everything preceding it" was good but that wasn't makes no sense. Sephiroth's motivations aside, Wedge survived the plate fall. You didn't find that odd? That shows *massive* implications towards the plot. The whole game they built it up that this isn't your standard FFVII. I'm not sure how anyone could play it and think things would be the same leading up to the eventual confrontation with the Plot Ghosts given they're the most impactful element in the story. Once Wedge survived I started to mentally prepare myself that this wasn't the same FFVII. I'm not sure how other veterans didn't have the same mindset. Wedge is *supposed* to die. That's his fate.

I don't get why people fall back on this notion that if someone didn't like the ending, they didn't notice or didn't get what the plot ghosts were alluding to in the preceding 95% of the story. I believe what I said was fairly clear, but let me try again. Them making some of these minor changes/additions to the story was mostly enjoyable. The deep dive into Midgar, game play, characterizations, character moments, set pieces, music, etc were mostly enjoyable. What wasn't enjoyable, and what instilled a sense of dread in me personally as I progressed further into the game, were what specifically ended up culminating at that last hour.

At no point was I ever intrigued by the plot ghosts. In every instance they were a distraction from what should have been iconic, memorable moments. Instead they knock you out of an immersive experience with the subtlety of a brick to the head. Up until the church, my response was to be annoyed and wonder why the hell they were even added and where it was all going. [spoiler]After the first Reno fight where they show up and save Aerith from falling[/spoiler] I literally said out loud, "Oh No..." It only got worse from there in every imaginable way. So, yes. I too was mentally preparing myself for the "This ain't yo daddy's FFVII" while trying my best to compartmentalize the plot ghosts and get lost in the enjoyment of the rest of the game. Unfortunately, I didn't fathom that it would be as hamfisted, dumb, and unnecessary as it ended up being.

It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp that people were digging the game up until the "contrivance" and that when they state this, they are also lumping every intrusive appearance of the plot ghosts and their impact on the game up to that point. If they scrubbed all that shit out, the game would have still been great, it wouldn't have split the fan base, and (more than likely) wouldn't have lead to noticeably lower sales of future installments. It's the Genesis situation in Crisis Core all over again, only magnified and much much worse.

Nomuraesque fan fiction belongs in Kingdom Hearts. It doesn't belong in a game with an established story with specific themes woven throughout. Doubly insulting is that the remake was marketed as an expanded/slightly changed (not one for one) but mostly faithful retelling for the modern age. I was on board for that, as well as a ton of other people. Instead, we got SE's worst hits in the span of an hour:

[spoiler]Nomura's big heartless boss + FATE

Toriyama's ending from FFXIII where the characters do an about face, start spewing nonsense about fate, and end up doing things for "reasons"

Cloud and gang powering up to Advent Children levels somehow and going toe to toe with Sephiroth.

Time travel that was never even remotely hinted at in the OG, but will became the crux of the remake and its sequels (FFXIII and Toriyama rear their shitty selves once again).[/spoiler]

Where do you even go from here honestly? People really think modern SE has what it takes to bring this new story direction to a satisfactory end? The FFXIV team notwithstanding, they certainly haven't earned that trust, so where is it coming from? Nomura hasn't finished/delivered anything remotely satisfying in a decade and a half. So I am extremely perplexed why, seemingly, a lot of people are onboard for this new direction. If people (and the developers) were thirsty for something new, then FFXVI was the answer. Not this.

Where is the trust coming from? The game you played. You said it was mostly great.

They could have fucked up the characters and made Cloud an edgelord instead of the dork he is. They've made Cloud an emo fuck for 20 years after FFVII. They've made Aerith some shitty ass damsel. Here, they honored the characters while giving them new depth. I really liked what they did with Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie too.

You can't just say,"this was great" but in the same post also say,"where does the trust come from?" after years of people saying (including me) that they'd fuck it up and that the developers themselves don't even understand their own creation. Isn't this a self defeating premise?

Also I never said that because you didn't like it you didn't see it coming. From what I read, you were fine with minor changes. But to me many of those changes are not minor.

I'm sorry but the idea of an alternate universe where [spoiler]Zack is alive[/spoiler] excites me. Thinking of the possibilities that anything can happen excites me.

Although you may not agree I feel like the majority of the game is at a high quality that they have earned back the trust they had with me pre-Compilation.

The original games ending could be summed up as "half empty" vs "half full". It feels like with this one it's about trust vs distrust. I fully trust their vision and after reading theory after theory and listening to podcasts I'm all in and want no other game right now more than Part 2.

[Cid]

Much better than "Mother. Cetra. Ancients. Gast. Reunion." Sephiroth from the original. What a bad, limited character.

Yes much worse than "Fate. Destiny. Fate. Planet. Fate."

I'm pretty sure Sephiroth has like four lines in the remake and he definitely doesn't talk like this at all.

It's almost like I wrote a dismissive oversimplification and ultimately wrong characterization to highlight your own...... !

Cid have you played the remake yet?

I've watched all the cutscenes which is why I haven't commented on anything outside the story. I wasn't even going to comment again in this thread because I've already said all I have to say, but HKK's comment about OG Sephiroth had me stunned.

That being said, I'm sure I'll play it eventually when it's out on PC and on sale. The bits that aren't plot ghosts or filler seem great and I enjoyed the combat system when I played the demo. But I strongly disagree with the changes they made to the story and all I can do is vote with my wallet, so that's what I've chosen to do. Whoever is enjoying it now, more power to you.

[HKK]

What filler are you referring to?

And I think Sephiroth sucks in both the original and the remake. He's a character where the less you see the better. He's better as a force of nature and treated like Jaws than being seen, but that also limits him as a character. Just poor all around. I prefer Shinra and Jeneova as villains. Hell, Hojo is a better villain. Sephiroth is probably the least compelling/interesting character in the game and he's the main villain. This is true in both the remake and the original. I'm not a fan and VII Remake has too much Sephiroth for my liking.

[Cid]

What filler are you referring to?

From my observations it seems like there are an abundance of filler side quests and many areas are padded out, like the return to the sewers, Hojo's Wild Lab Ride, the mechanical arm section, etc. But again I've stuck to only commenting on the story for that reason. Maybe if I played it I'd think all of that was a blast, who knows.

That being said, the idea of filler does connect into the story at parts. For example:

[spoiler]When you're climbing up the tower to stop the plate from collapsing, it doesn't make sense for you to stop and watch a four minute cutscene (twice) just so Biggs and Jessie can have their little moment. Not only does it not make sense, it belittles the intelligence of the audience by signaling for them to feel sad. "Look, audience member. See? Biggs and Cloud are having a bro moment right now. This is where you're supposed to feel sympathetic. Oh, look. Now he's dead. This is where you're supposed to feel sad. Okay, go on with the game now."

In the original, they all just get mowed down like dogs and you don't really even have time to mourn for them. You exchange maybe a line or two and then you gotta book it to stop that plate from collapsing. The entire scene illustrates how absolutely powerless Avalanche is compared to Shinra and how brutal and ruthless Shinra is. But now Shinra is shown to be incompetent and fails, then the plot ghosts save the day, robbing anyone in the scene of any agency.

This is the same reason I detest the Crisis Core version of Zack's death compared to the original, but I digress.[/spoiler]

but that also limits him as a character.

Not really. There's a whole section of the game where you get to know the person he used to be and watch his slow descent into madness. When he returns they make it crystal clear what his motivations are. You can also see the story behind his birth if you choose to recruit Vincent. Sephiroth is one of the more complex and tragic villains in the series in my opinion.

I prefer Shinra and Jeneova as villains.

You think Sephiroth is limited but you're a big fan of the drifting space parasite?

[Damien]

"Filler" is unfair, as it's mostly the game being fleshed out to be a satisfying entire product. Some of the optional side quests are a bit meh, but Final Fantasy XIV is predominantly meh side quests and is still a great game. The fleshed out aspects really do make Midgar feel more real though, rather than a set of screens scattered with unrelatable NPCs.

[Lord Golbez]

Zack is the worst character ever who never should have even been a character. Zack is a plot device and he should have remained nothing more than a plot device. Fcuk the compilation and fcuk Zack.

[Damien]

There's no denying that he's become a fan favourite since FFVII was first released though. He's kinda' like FFVII's Bobba Fett.

[Lord Golbez]

That's a perfect description. Another garbage character who's loved for no good reason.

[Fei Ayanami]

Everyone knows IG-88 is cooler than Boba Fett

[HKK]

What filler are you referring to?

From my observations it seems like there are an abundance of filler side quests and many areas are padded out, like the return to the sewers, Hojo's Wild Lab Ride, the mechanical arm section, etc. But again I've stuck to only commenting on the story for that reason. Maybe if I played it I'd think all of that was a blast, who knows.

That being said, the idea of filler does connect into the story at parts. For example:

[spoiler]When you're climbing up the tower to stop the plate from collapsing, it doesn't make sense for you to stop and watch a four minute cutscene (twice) just so Biggs and Jessie can have their little moment. Not only does it not make sense, it belittles the intelligence of the audience by signaling for them to feel sad. "Look, audience member. See? Biggs and Cloud are having a bro moment right now. This is where you're supposed to feel sympathetic. Oh, look. Now he's dead. This is where you're supposed to feel sad. Okay, go on with the game now."

In the original, they all just get mowed down like dogs and you don't really even have time to mourn for them. You exchange maybe a line or two and then you gotta book it to stop that plate from collapsing. The entire scene illustrates how absolutely powerless Avalanche is compared to Shinra and how brutal and ruthless Shinra is. But now Shinra is shown to be incompetent and fails, then the plot ghosts save the day, robbing anyone in the scene of any agency.

This is the same reason I detest the Crisis Core version of Zack's death compared to the original, but I digress.[/spoiler]

but that also limits him as a character.

Not really. There's a whole section of the game where you get to know the person he used to be and watch his slow descent into madness. When he returns they make it crystal clear what his motivations are. You can also see the story behind his birth if you choose to recruit Vincent. Sephiroth is one of the more complex and tragic villains in the series in my opinion.

I prefer Shinra and Jeneova as villains.

You think Sephiroth is limited but you're a big fan of the drifting space parasite?

Absolutely Jehovah is more interesting. It's arguable Jenova controlled Sephiroth to begin with! That's what Jenova does! The idea of a Lovecraftian virus that just kills and has its cells injected into a pregnant woman is fascinating.

Sephiroth has zero development post Nibelheim flashback and what little development he did have is abrupt. Dude goes from cool and collected to burning down villages and saying the planet is mine in a matter of days. Sephiroth sucks and is only interesting a force of nature. Sephiroth stopped being interesting when I was 15.

The treatment of Sephiroth as a character proves all of this. He's barely a character. There's nothing mysterious about him. He's supposed to be the most powerful being in the universe but keeps losing. He's not even interesting beyond the first playthrough. Hojo and Shinra comparatively bring the most impactful events.

Fuck Sephiroth.

And I agree about Jessie and Bigg's deaths. Short and sweet is the order of the day. The game does have pacing problems and it's its biggest flaw. But that doesn't make it a bad game.

Zack is the worst character ever who never should have even been a character. Zack is a plot device and he should have remained nothing more than a plot device. Fcuk the compilation and fcuk Zack.

I like him. To say he's not a character is wrong though. The Cloud we see pre-Mideel mostly is Zack. The guy tries to save Cloud, gets him as far as Midgar, desperately wants to help him, and is killed by Shinra. Of course he's liked. Zack IS the character in the Nibelheim flashback. Why wouldn't people like him?

Bizarre opinion.

[Lord Golbez]

No. Zack is part of the character in the Nibelheim flashback and not really the important part either. He exists solely to create confusion about Cloud's past. Sephiroth doesn't talk to Zack about going home, because Nibelheim wasn't his home. Zack doesn't visit Cloud's mother. That would be ridiculous. Zack is just the other SOLDIER member who shows up with Sephiroth to investigate the Nibelheim reactor. So what? What exact significance is there to him in the flashback other than to cast doubt on whether Cloud was actually there (and hence whether Cloud is actually Tifa's childhood friend or some Jenova construct)?

I can't imagine why anyone would care much about Zack at all prior to the extra stuff like Crisis Core, and as far as I'm concerned that's all a bunch of retcon BS.

[Cid]

That's what Jenova does!

Jenova mindlessly floats through space until it hits a planet, kills everything, then does it again. It has more in common with bacteria than an actual character.

Sephiroth has zero development post Nibelheim flashback and what little development he did have is abrupt.

You know who he was, who he is now, how he got that way, and what his current goals are. What further development are you looking for?

Everyone knows IG-88 is cooler than Boba Fett

Is that the robot that looks like a walking lamp without the shade?

[Lord Golbez]

That's what Jenova does!

Jenova mindlessly floats through space until it hits a planet, kills everything, then does it again. It has more in common with bacteria than an actual character.

I like Sephiroth way more than Jenova and think HKK is just plain wrong about him, but this feels like an unfair characterization of Jenova. I don't know of any evidence or assertions in FFVII to the effect that Jenova is "mindless" but I can think of plot points that suggest otherwise. Jenova is supposedly a master of deception taking on the form of a planet's inhabitants to hide amongst them. Sure you could chalk that up to some form of base instinct, but I see no reason to assume Jenova isn't intelligent. Your description sounds more like Lavos than Jenova.

[Joei]

I've not really read everything people have posted yet but i do have to agree Sephiroth is generally a shit character and everything in the last chapter sucks. I sorta like what they were TRYING to do but the execution was terrrrrrible and i just wanted the game to wrap up. The last boss fights were not fun.

[Damien]

I thought the final bosses weren't fun but the tentacle one before it nwas the most fun battle in the game.

[Joei]

I thought the final bosses weren't fun but the tentacle one before it nwas the most fun battle in the game.

Yeah everything upto the end of the bike section was great.

[Cid]

I don't know of any evidence or assertions in FFVII to the effect that Jenova is "mindless" but I can think of plot points that suggest otherwise. Jenova is supposedly a master of deception taking on the form of a planet's inhabitants to hide amongst them. Sure you could chalk that up to some form of base instinct, but I see no reason to assume Jenova isn't intelligent.

It's just a shapeshifter. I can point you to a million and one fictional monsters that shapeshift and have no higher thoughts beyond finding their next meal. But if you have any evidence of Jenova's intelligence that I'm overlooking I'd be happy to hear it.

[Lord Golbez]

I thought the final bosses weren't fun but the tentacle one before it nwas the most fun battle in the game.

Yeah everything upto the end of the bike section was great.

Exactly. The game could have been greatly improved by pure subtraction without anything added.

[Cybernetic Empire]

I literally haven't touched a videogame since the credits rolled on this on April 16th. I hated the last hour of this that much and it's completely killed my enthusiasm for the rest of the project. It was utter nonsense and completely killed the stakes of anything in the OG that's supposed to come after this. It's depressing to think about when everything preceding the end showed they actually could make a quality remake of VII while changing things up and keeping it fresh (minus the contrived plot ghosts).

The entire game they built up to that moment so the idea that "everything preceding it" was good but that wasn't makes no sense. Sephiroth's motivations aside, Wedge survived the plate fall. You didn't find that odd? That shows *massive* implications towards the plot. The whole game they built it up that this isn't your standard FFVII. I'm not sure how anyone could play it and think things would be the same leading up to the eventual confrontation with the Plot Ghosts given they're the most impactful element in the story. Once Wedge survived I started to mentally prepare myself that this wasn't the same FFVII. I'm not sure how other veterans didn't have the same mindset. Wedge is *supposed* to die. That's his fate.

I don't get why people fall back on this notion that if someone didn't like the ending, they didn't notice or didn't get what the plot ghosts were alluding to in the preceding 95% of the story. I believe what I said was fairly clear, but let me try again. Them making some of these minor changes/additions to the story was mostly enjoyable. The deep dive into Midgar, game play, characterizations, character moments, set pieces, music, etc were mostly enjoyable. What wasn't enjoyable, and what instilled a sense of dread in me personally as I progressed further into the game, were what specifically ended up culminating at that last hour.

At no point was I ever intrigued by the plot ghosts. In every instance they were a distraction from what should have been iconic, memorable moments. Instead they knock you out of an immersive experience with the subtlety of a brick to the head. Up until the church, my response was to be annoyed and wonder why the hell they were even added and where it was all going. [spoiler]After the first Reno fight where they show up and save Aerith from falling[/spoiler] I literally said out loud, "Oh No..." It only got worse from there in every imaginable way. So, yes. I too was mentally preparing myself for the "This ain't yo daddy's FFVII" while trying my best to compartmentalize the plot ghosts and get lost in the enjoyment of the rest of the game. Unfortunately, I didn't fathom that it would be as hamfisted, dumb, and unnecessary as it ended up being.

It really shouldn't be that hard to grasp that people were digging the game up until the "contrivance" and that when they state this, they are also lumping every intrusive appearance of the plot ghosts and their impact on the game up to that point. If they scrubbed all that shit out, the game would have still been great, it wouldn't have split the fan base, and (more than likely) wouldn't have lead to noticeably lower sales of future installments. It's the Genesis situation in Crisis Core all over again, only magnified and much much worse.

Nomuraesque fan fiction belongs in Kingdom Hearts. It doesn't belong in a game with an established story with specific themes woven throughout. Doubly insulting is that the remake was marketed as an expanded/slightly changed (not one for one) but mostly faithful retelling for the modern age. I was on board for that, as well as a ton of other people. Instead, we got SE's worst hits in the span of an hour:

[spoiler]Nomura's big heartless boss + FATE

Toriyama's ending from FFXIII where the characters do an about face, start spewing nonsense about fate, and end up doing things for "reasons"

Cloud and gang powering up to Advent Children levels somehow and going toe to toe with Sephiroth.

Time travel that was never even remotely hinted at in the OG, but will became the crux of the remake and its sequels (FFXIII and Toriyama rear their shitty selves once again).[/spoiler]

Where do you even go from here honestly? People really think modern SE has what it takes to bring this new story direction to a satisfactory end? The FFXIV team notwithstanding, they certainly haven't earned that trust, so where is it coming from? Nomura hasn't finished/delivered anything remotely satisfying in a decade and a half. So I am extremely perplexed why, seemingly, a lot of people are onboard for this new direction. If people (and the developers) were thirsty for something new, then FFXVI was the answer. Not this.

Where is the trust coming from? The game you played. You said it was mostly great.

They could have fucked up the characters and made Cloud an edgelord instead of the dork he is. They've made Cloud an emo fuck for 20 years after FFVII. They've made Aerith some shitty ass damsel. Here, they honored the characters while giving them new depth. I really liked what they did with Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie too.

You can't just say,"this was great" but in the same post also say,"where does the trust come from?" after years of people saying (including me) that they'd fuck it up and that the developers themselves don't even understand their own creation. Isn't this a self defeating premise?

Also I never said that because you didn't like it you didn't see it coming. From what I read, you were fine with minor changes. But to me many of those changes are not minor.

I'm sorry but the idea of an alternate universe where [spoiler]Zack is alive[/spoiler] excites me. Thinking of the possibilities that anything can happen excites me.

Although you may not agree I feel like the majority of the game is at a high quality that they have earned back the trust they had with me pre-Compilation.

The original games ending could be summed up as "half empty" vs "half full". It feels like with this one it's about trust vs distrust. I fully trust their vision and after reading theory after theory and listening to podcasts I'm all in and want no other game right now more than Part 2.

It's not all or nothing. I absolutely can say they were nailing certain aspects of the game until they blew it to hell. I can also say that it retroactively fucks everything up preceding it as I now know the "great mystery" and it kills my enjoyment, enthusiasm, and goodwill every time it rears its ugly head. Getting burned by twenty years of mediocrity doesn't get my trust. They were gaining my trust with the lead up to the game through interviews, trailers, demos, etc. It started to slip more and more with each appearance of the plot ghosts, but the characters and gameplay kept me going. Once I got to end of the highway and the characters I was loving up to that point turn, on a dime, into Lightning and crew spouting nonsense and doing Advent Children acrobatics, I was out. Amidst all of that we un-organically cut to[spoiler] Zack who...lives in an alternate reality?[/spoiler] Cool...

You say they gained back your trust lost due to the compilation. [spoiler]This Sephiroth seems like AC Sephiroth. You fight versions of the Advent Children in the final battle.[/spoiler] They shoehorned in narrative devices and plot points to the detriment of the world of FFVII just like every compilation title did before this. You seemingly disliked compilation games, but this IS entry five into the compilation, and it echoes the worst instincts of those titles. They almost did it, but they couldn't reign in Nomura, Toriyama, and (to a lesser degree) Nojima's shittiness that has been straight up ruining Final Fantasy for roughly 15 years. So yeah, where is the trust coming from?

[Lord Golbez]

No kidding. I was mad when I found out Nomura was heading this up instead of Kitase and it turns out I was right to be. I seriously doubt we would have this mess if Kitase had taken the director role.

[Cybernetic Empire]

I don't know of any evidence or assertions in FFVII to the effect that Jenova is "mindless" but I can think of plot points that suggest otherwise. Jenova is supposedly a master of deception taking on the form of a planet's inhabitants to hide amongst them. Sure you could chalk that up to some form of base instinct, but I see no reason to assume Jenova isn't intelligent.

It's just a shapeshifter. I can point you to a million and one fictional monsters that shapeshift and have no higher thoughts beyond finding their next meal. But if you have any evidence of Jenova's intelligence that I'm overlooking I'd be happy to hear it.

Jenova is akin to The Thing. When it gets discovered it can turn into a grotesque monster and may seem mindless. However, it can perfectly copy intelligence, so there has to be some level of intelligence, foresight, or will.

No kidding. I was mad when I found out Nomura was heading this up instead of Kitase and it turns out I was right to be. I seriously doubt we would have this mess if Kitase had taken the director role.

I can't remember the interview, but it was post release and it sound's like Kitase's actual role was fairly limited, or he was downplaying it. I'll have to dig it up when I get a chance.

[Lord Golbez]

For the remake or the original? I definitely believe it for the remake, but he was the director for the original and I think he played a significant role in the game's creation. Best games of the series are the ones Kitase directed.

[Cid]

Jenova is akin to The Thing. When it gets discovered it can turn into a grotesque monster and may seem mindless. However, it can perfectly copy intelligence, so there has to be some level of intelligence, foresight, or will.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't seen the film in a very long time, but wasn't The Thing constructing a spaceship? I think the prequel showed it operating one as well. This would indicate a high level of intelligence. I have yet to see anything to suggest the same for Jenova.

To be clear, when I said Jenova was mindless I didn't mean it was an inanimate object. I meant it's singular motivation is to consume/destroy. It has no wants or desires or plans other than to repeat this from planet to planet like a virus. Clearly it has some intelligence to function as a complex organism, but I would put it at the level of some sort of sea creature floating around looking for the next thing to eat based on instinct.

[Lord Golbez]

Jenova is basically FF Galactus, man.

[Cid]

Movie Galactus, maybe.

[Cybernetic Empire]

Jenova is akin to The Thing. When it gets discovered it can turn into a grotesque monster and may seem mindless. However, it can perfectly copy intelligence, so there has to be some level of intelligence, foresight, or will.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't seen the film in a very long time, but wasn't The Thing constructing a spaceship? I think the prequel showed it operating one as well. This would indicate a high level of intelligence. I have yet to see anything to suggest the same for Jenova.

To be clear, when I said Jenova was mindless I didn't mean it was an inanimate object. I meant it's singular motivation is to consume/destroy. It has no wants or desires or plans other than to repeat this from planet to planet like a virus. Clearly it has some intelligence to function as a complex organism, but I would put it at the level of some sort of sea creature floating around looking for the next thing to eat based on instinct.

I mean, maybe I'm just projecting onto the Jenova specimen itself since it looked like a woman when Shinra found it (arguably the form of a Cetra that it had when they initially defeated "her"). We could go round and round on if perfectly duplicating intelligent life infers an intelligence itself or merely base instinct to survive and consume. *shrug*

For the remake or the original? I definitely believe it for the remake, but he was the director for the original and I think he played a significant role in the game's creation. Best games of the series are the ones Kitase directed.

The Remake.

https://aitaikimochi.tumblr.com/post/61 ... ssion=true

I can't reread through it now, but this and other interviews seemed to have Nomura and Kitase waffling about the direction that the Remake will take. Maybe it's poor translation, but the game is out now and you can see clear fingerprints of who did what.

Kitase: I’ve talked about this extensively with Nomura, but I’m sure fans of the original are expecting to revisit familiar locations and scenes, so we have strong feelings to not stray away from that. From here on out, we’re not drastically changing the story and making it into something completely different than the original. Even though it’s a Remake, please assume that FF7 will still be FF7 as usual.

Kitase: In this first installment, I think we were able to figure out the exact direction and shape we would like to take with the FFVII Remake. Within the Remake, many hints were strewn along, and we would like fans to get excited and think about on what exactly will happen in the next installments. The theories posted on the internet do reach us, and I think that type of communication between the fans and us will help in creating a story together for all to enjoy.

Given those back to back quotes, and what transpired in the first part of Remake: I don't trust their intentions or ability to deliver anything remotely faithful to the original without throwing in a bunch of tonally different, contrived, and dumb shit that detracts from any quality they are able to create. They can't help themselves.

Edit: Here we go: https://www.frontlinejp.net/2020/04/17/ ... yoshinori/

Kitase, who was director of the original FFVII, is asked how much input he had on the remake. He says that the overall direction and concept, story and worldbuilding was left to Nomura, while game design and drama scene direction was left to co-directors Hamaguchi and Toriyama. Kitase did not make many direct requests, but did participate as a planner on some locations in the game: He says that the initial level design for the infiltration and escape from Mako Reactor no. 5 was done by him, and hopes players take notice of it.

[Cid]

I mean, maybe I'm just projecting onto the Jenova specimen itself since it looked like a woman when Shinra found it (arguably the form of a Cetra that it had when they initially defeated "her"). We could go round and round on if perfectly duplicating intelligent life infers an intelligence itself or merely base instinct to survive and consume. *shrug*

True. What I always thought was interesting was the "Cetra Jenova" we see isn't even a perfect duplicate, it's more like a rough approximation of a human, assuming Cetra women weren't blue with eyeballs on their tiddies. Given that Sephiroth could mold Jenova into his own image perfectly later on, perhaps this was just Jenova's previous form slowly reverting to its cosmic horror abomination state over time while dormant. Or perhaps Jenova is actually only capable of a rough approximation but Sephiroth's will controlling the Jenova cells pushes it to a more perfect duplication.

Also, after this discussion I was reading wiki articles about it. They may or may not be accurate of course, but one stated "Jenova can absorb its prey's memories and form, hiding as their loved ones to destroy them" which seems to imply that it doesn't mimic based on observation and its own judgement, but instead devours a lifeform and runs its genetic "program," so to speak.

In any case my original point was that Jenova doesn't have more character depth than Sephiroth, although discussing its origins and nature is certainly interesting.

Given those back to back quotes, and what transpired in the first part of Remake: I don't trust their intentions or ability to deliver anything remotely faithful to the original without throwing in a bunch of tonally different, contrived, and dumb shit that detracts from any quality they are able to create. They can't help themselves.

Even if they wanted to follow the original story from this point it wouldn't make any sense given what just transpired. My money is on Nomura's Wild Ride hitting 88MPH.

[cloud33]

Final Fantasy VII is the best game ever, so it goes without saying that the remake is even better. Famitsu also did an excellent job analyzing the remake, not to mention they did interviews with all the voice actors. When I saw the new HD remaster come out I started playing it immediately, for the PS4 version, not going to wait for a lame Xbox version. Not a fan of art/item/dungeon scenes, but for the action scenes it's smooth as butter. The only thing that's a bit too much is the CG. As a fan of Shin Megami Tensei, I feel it detracts from the experience, even though I like what it does. The world in the remake was modeled after Persona 5.

We all know how great Persona 5 is, so it's a good thing it was a source of inspiration for FFVII:R. Teddie would have had to get far enough in the story to awaken Yuffie, but if everything we've seen of her thus far is anything to go by, she's got some big problems to solve. And, of course, there would be an extra difficulty level based on how formidable the Requiem battle against Cloud is in this iteration of the saga.

One last notable element we may not be aware of (although, it should be mentioned, it has already been explained) is the presence of two alternate endings for the main game. different Cloud stories. The first of these Cloud Stories involves Iris, who wants Cloud to take her into the city to be trained as a SOLDIER, and is basically turned down because he is just so busy being a cute boy and doesn't want to drag down some of his buddies' hopes and dreams. After some back-and-forth that should be fairly easy for English-speaking readers to follow, the two are set back to square one with Cloud deciding to help her because he doesn't know what else to do and Iris feeling he's the only one who will understand her.

Here you have another side of Cloud that you don't know much about: his idealistic often childish, and incredibly prone to friendship and love. Outside of that he is a generally good guy, despite his insecurities and shy. Pretty relatable IMO.

[cloud33]

True. What I always thought was interesting was the "Cetra Jenova" we see isn't even a perfect duplicate, it's more like a rough approximation of a human, assuming Cetra women weren't blue with eyeballs on their tiddies. Given that Sephiroth could mold Jenova into his own image perfectly later on, perhaps this was just Jenova's previous form slowly reverting to its cosmic horror abomination state over time while dormant. Or perhaps Jenova is actually only capable of a rough approximation but Sephiroth's will controlling the Jenova cells pushes it to a more perfect duplication.

Read on as I attempt to see this all of its glaring mistakes. Here are the facts: Jenova is a natural evolution of Yuna's magic, Aeons, and the blade Excalibur. Aeons that are naturally born to the Nobody (Jenova) and the current Nobody and the Imagine Breaker aren't under the control of Jenova. Jenova and Sephiroth are fighting over their consciousnesses. The difference between Jenova and Sephiroth is that Sephiroth's mind is being corrupted by Sephiroth. The last thing Jenova wants to do is replace Sephiroth with a mind with access to this planet's latent etheric energies.

Sephiroth suddenly appears in Jenova's chest, and battles Jenova's offensive and defensive abilities in close combat. Sephiroth gets closer to Jenova's X-factor core, but Sephiroth, knowing it would be more powerful if merged with Jenova's pure etheric life, asks Jenova to kill him.

Jenova escapes from Sephiroth's grip and attempts to kill Sephiroth again by draining him of his physical energy. This works, but as she's battling with Sephiroth, Jenova begins to undergo changes. Sephiroth's wave of Yuffie's weapon focuses on just Jenova, then Jenova instead attacks Tifa. She's eliminated before she can inflict any damage, and Sephiroth watches as the death of Yuffie looks to cause an evolution in the rest of the whole Planet. With Tifa dead, Sephiroth promises Sephiroth can become god. You can catch more about Sephiroth's development and explanation in his whole battle.

And yes, the death of Yuffie is tragic and thus even in the game in a way it does make you question if this is truly a real Sephiroth, that Sephiroth could die in reality. There's also the fact that you even have the option to revive Yuffie without too much issue if you feel like it. The very plot that allows you to bring Sephiroth back to life and be the best Sephiroth is actually very much related to whether or not you've created Yuffie at all.

[Cid]

[cloud33]

I see your skepticism but I have actually played FFVII:R, and you haven't. The game is a classic and will be considered "infallible". This is an insult to how you have behaved in this thread (and apparently to the company that you are posting for). To suggest that FFVII:R is anything less than what it claims to be, the official X-Files setting, is downright idiotic. It is an unfiltered review and I challenge you to come up with any errors that you have found in this game. Every major feature of the story is true and accurate, and there is no "fixing" to the game. The only "fixing" that is really needed is replacing one character (Yuffie), because she is the most annoying character of all of them, and the poor girl is forced to suffer through a series of events that no fan of the series would wish upon any other character. The game makes the poor girl out to be the villain, but in reality, she is no worse than anyone else in the game.

Its only a matter of time now before we see that new and exciting franchise that we've been talking about with the Cloud franchise moving forward. Follow me on Twitter @Wilkomm

[Lord Golbez]

Did Ward make another troll account?

[Cid]

It reads like an AI bot mashed a number of unrelated blog posts together.

[Damien]

I think the tragic death of Yuffie should perhaps be behind spoiler tags.

[HKK]

I have no idea what's going on.

Also, I will admit that the final chapter *was* clumsy. But the actual ending was great imo.

Finally, Kitase and the rest of the staff were on board. The decision was a group one, and not Nomura's sole decision. Kitase basically agreed with him and signed off on it. I can't find the article right now.

[Damien]

I wonder if they actually have the story planned out from this point and if it’ll deviate entirely from the old FFVII story. Hopefully it doesn’t go all Kingdom Hearts and they don’t try to make it super complicated.

[HKK]

Doubt it. I think it'll be the same for the most part. I think they're setting this up so you think you can save Aerith but end up failing anyways, which would be a great way to make her death even more resonant in the remake.

[cloud33]

I would like to offer a self-defence. In my opinion I posted nothing wrong, and while I am very imaginative, it is because I am passionate. Do not abuse, do not hate, do not abuse, do not hate. I posted something 'outrageous', probably due to my high blood pressure, so no one was offended. However, I made a political statement.

I just wanted to say that I love BDSM. My partner who runs a blog is a Domme. For the last 4 years we've been partners in life, passion and BDSM. I don't like the word 'slut'. I believe that both men and women should have the right to define themselves in their own way. I enjoy power exchange as an act, not as a lifestyle. Power exchange is only powerful when two people feel a mutual amount of trust. If I'm feeling aroused or playing with him, he gets a chance to feel me. I hope that clarifies things.

[Cid]

These are my favorite posts in the history of this forum.