Square Gamer Home
 Square Gamer Home  Square Gamer Community Forum Index  FAQ Search   Memberlist   Profile   Log in   Log in to check your private messages  Register 
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Square Gamer Community Forum Index -> Hot Topics! -> 2G18 - 31: Political parties
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: icon_warning 2G18 - 31: Political parties Reply with quote Back to top

Basic question: would we be better off without political parties in our democracies? In a sense, every single politician running as an independent? Or can you think of really compelling reasons for maintaining them? As far as I know, they exist in every democratic government.

Discuss.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Such a hot Hot Topic I have started.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineLord Golbez
Master of MeTEAo
 Avatar
Kingdom Arse
Kingdom Arse

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 18245
Location: DC
Male Male
Age: 37
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Answer: Yes. The political parties are effectively large special interest groups. They do not reperesent the interests of the majority of their members other than by the bare minimum of negation of the alternative. It's difficult to prevent them from coming into existence though.
_________________
The TBB offers you tea and biscuits. teatime
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

You could... make them illegal?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineLord Golbez
Master of MeTEAo
 Avatar
Kingdom Arse
Kingdom Arse

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 18245
Location: DC
Male Male
Age: 37
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

It would be difficult to differentiate between political parties and any kind of organizing in the pursuit of shared goals. If you get rid of the latter you effectively get rid of democracy altogether. One thing you could do though is to make it illegal to run elections according to political party. So the parties can exist but they don't govern the way elections are run. No R's and D's on ballots. No party based primaries determining who appears on the ballot. Basically let them exist but neuter them.
_________________
The TBB offers you tea and biscuits. teatime
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah that does seem better than nothing. Shall we begin implementing these changes?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineDamien
Most High One
 Avatar
Managerial Enforcer
Managerial Enforcer

Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Total posts: 24671
Location: Gunchester
Male Male
Age: 36
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

There'd be a hell of a lot of independent politicians if there weren't parties. The thousands of slight variations on the same views and policies would probably confuse most people too.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineWaWard
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Total posts: 7427
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I think we should just emulate chairman mao and have one giant party! 🎉 🎈 🎊
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineMitsurugi CP
Rxorcist
 Avatar
Suikoden Character
Suikoden Character

Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Total posts: 2791
Location: Wisconsin
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Even without parties, a lot of people would create largely meaningless distinctions to avoid having to exert a lot of brain power being informed on policy and candidate positions. Identity politics will still exist without official groups because we're still dumb apes that have barely gotten the hang of sapience and are still trying to decide whether to ask for a receipt for evolution's relatively new gift of abstract thought. Hell, we even have unofficial distinctions within and outside of parties (In the US, see RINOs, blue dog democrats, Ross Perot, Bernie Sanders, John McCain, etc.)

That being said, they still need to die because they're a huge waste of money and the strong organizational ties, pledges of party loyalty, etc. make unenlightened self-interest and corruption an endemic certainty rather than an ever-present danger.
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineLord Golbez
Master of MeTEAo
 Avatar
Kingdom Arse
Kingdom Arse

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 18245
Location: DC
Male Male
Age: 37
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

To be honest, I think representative government is kind of shit anyway. Think about how long it takes representative bodies to do anything and then tell me we can't do this shit by direct democracy.
_________________
The TBB offers you tea and biscuits. teatime
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I was thinking something similar recently. Representative government does seem kind of shit. However, I think the age-old question is “what would actually work better?” You know... in detail.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineMitsurugi CP
Rxorcist
 Avatar
Suikoden Character
Suikoden Character

Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Total posts: 2791
Location: Wisconsin
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Direct democracy seems like it'd be prone to oppressive majority rule.

I wonder how federal civil rights legislation would have shaped out under direct democracy 50 years ago.

Not that it would be all bad, but there's a lot of low information voters that could swing the outcome based not primarily on weighing contemporary knowledge, evidence, and societal vs individual risk/benefit, but more on emotional appeals and inherent cognitive biases.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

While that’s hard to argue against, I’m not sure representative government is really a great barrier to the same basic problem?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineMitsurugi CP
Rxorcist
 Avatar
Suikoden Character
Suikoden Character

Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Total posts: 2791
Location: Wisconsin
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Not a great barrier, not even a minimally sufficient one, but like a foot-tall privacy fence, it's a barrier.

If only there were a system of government that largely eliminated the problems of under-representation, bureaucratic delay, and uninformed, vote-eligible stakeholders.
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineLord Golbez
Master of MeTEAo
 Avatar
Kingdom Arse
Kingdom Arse

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 18245
Location: DC
Male Male
Age: 37
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Mitsurugi CP wrote:
Direct democracy seems like it'd be prone to oppressive majority rule.

I wonder how federal civil rights legislation would have shaped out under direct democracy 50 years ago.

Not that it would be all bad, but there's a lot of low information voters that could swing the outcome based not primarily on weighing contemporary knowledge, evidence, and societal vs individual risk/benefit, but more on emotional appeals and inherent cognitive biases.


That's fair, but right now we have oppressive minority rule. When Congress goes against things that the majority of voters in both parties support (e.g. net neutrality), it shows the flaws of representative government.
_________________
The TBB offers you tea and biscuits. teatime
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineMitsurugi CP
Rxorcist
 Avatar
Suikoden Character
Suikoden Character

Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Total posts: 2791
Location: Wisconsin
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I wouldn't mind having the option to have national referendums during regular elections, that could be interesting for key issues.

Although we also just saw how that can go to crap with Brexit. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

You could argue that Brexit was driven by party politics, though?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineMitsurugi CP
Rxorcist
 Avatar
Suikoden Character
Suikoden Character

Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Total posts: 2791
Location: Wisconsin
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I don't see how you couldn't, but a purely representative democracy will still have identity politics factor prominently into voting decisions.

I should probably clarify that I'm not necessarily advocating for any particular form of government other than democracy, broadly speaking. As to which manifestation is probably best overall, I don't have a firm opinion because my assumptions about how an ideal government should operate are often confounded by my skepticism of human judgement and rationality.
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

The best form of government would somehow overcome or cancel out human idiocy.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineLord Golbez
Master of MeTEAo
 Avatar
Kingdom Arse
Kingdom Arse

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 18245
Location: DC
Male Male
Age: 37
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Let's be real though. Representative democracy doesn't solve the idiot voter problem. We just deal with the idiots tjeyv oted for instead. At least direct democracy largely solves the corruption problem of representative democracy.
_________________
The TBB offers you tea and biscuits. teatime
Back to top
View user's profile 
Offlinesmeared ink
Fei Ayanami
 Avatar
Kim Il Sung
Kim Il Sung

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 9608
Location: Montréal
Unknown Unknown
Age: 18
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I started reading this “book” (really just an essay, it’s probably no longer than a long-read article on a news site):



So far it is well-articulated! You can download an epub of it here:

https://libcom.org/library/abolition-all-political-parties-simone-weil

Shall we book-club it in this thread?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
OfflineCalbrena
Objection!
 Avatar
Good Birb
Good Birb

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 8439
Location: New York
Unknown Unknown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
I started reading this “book” (really just an essay, it’s probably no longer than a long-read article on a news site):



So far it is well-articulated! You can download an epub of it here:

https://libcom.org/library/abolition-all-political-parties-simone-weil

Shall we book-club it in this thread?

Next, you should read her autobiography. I read it shortly after she died and it has made a big impression on me.
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineCalbrena
Objection!
 Avatar
Good Birb
Good Birb

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 8439
Location: New York
Unknown Unknown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: icon_warning Re: 2G18 - 31: Political parties Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
Basic question: would we be better off without political parties in our democracies? In a sense, every single politician running as an independent? Or can you think of really compelling reasons for maintaining them? As far as I know, they exist in every democratic government.

Discuss.


Peas. Politicians need peas to fund their campaign, hence they need a party. Also, in order to get a majority and then be able to get shit done, it helps to clarify what you stand for, and parties are also good for that.

That being said, I find the basically 2 parties system in the US silly. Then again, in 2002 when France had 17 different candidates running to become president, that was silly too. Surely it's possible to find a compromise between 2 and 17? Even if I obviously don't like MLP, I find it interesting that our two main historical parties have imploded enough to have a race between 4 candidates which were all really close to one another in polls.
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineCybernetic Empire
Booze Hound
 Avatar
The Stranger
The Stranger

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 940
Location: South Dakota
Male Male
Age: 36
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Institute term limits for congress and/or get rid of electing legislative officials altogether and adopt a system similar to jury duty. Most people won't want to be there any longer than they need to be and might actually get shit done rather than covet their position/title for decades.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineCalbrena
Objection!
 Avatar
Good Birb
Good Birb

Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Total posts: 8439
Location: New York
Unknown Unknown
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Cybernetic Empire wrote:
Institute term limits for congress and/or get rid of electing legislative officials altogether and adopt a system similar to jury duty. Most people won't want to be there any longer than they need to be and might actually get shit done rather than covet their position/title for decades.

Term limits would definitely be a good thing.
Also, changing the way the Supreme Court works. It makes absolutely no sense.
Back to top
View user's profile 
OfflineRDM
TacocaTacocaT
 Avatar
Robots & Spaceships
Robots & Spaceships

Joined: 26 May 2005
Total posts: 10091
Location: Past the pines
Male Male
Age: 34
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

The Supreme Court should be ThunderDome. Two lawyers enter, one lawyer leaves.
_________________
The RDM has been right: 261,888,403,527,033,189,124,446 times‼
Club Chocobo Chocobo Mr. Green Chocobo Club Chocobo Chink Chocobo Club Chocobo Mr. Green Chocobo Chocobo Club
Back to top
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Square Gamer Community Forum Index -> Hot Topics! All times are GMT - 1 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


SquareGamer.com © 1999-2005 All Rights Reserved. Content published on SquareGamer.com requires permission for reprint or reuse.
Designed by Luke Agbaimoni. Maintained by Chris Hinkley. Founded by Shaun Walford
AFILLIATES | txt2nite | DJ Damien | Pikachu Gallery

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
RSS Feed