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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject:  2G18 - 2: Family Reply with quote Back to top

What are your feelings about family? Your parents, especially.

Do you feel you were raised "well"?

As an adult, do you think you owe them anything? Do they think so?

Do you believe familial relationships should be maintained whether they're mutually satisfying or not?

How does being a parent affect your view of all this, for those of you this applies to?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Um. I love my family. Do I think I was raised well? Pretty much for the most part. I think they made some mistakes and probably didn't prepare me for some aspects of life. Probably overemphasized academics and underemphasized some other life skills (dad's a teacher though , so go figure) but it's not like I'm a parent or have any idea how to strike that balance. I think pretty much regardless of what your parents do there's gonna be some way you can nitpick it.

Yeah, I guess I would say I "owe" them I suppose, but that's a pretty stupid way to look at it. Doesn't really matter if I owe them, only that if they need me I can hopefully step up.

Mutually satisfying? What is this shit, the family in late capitalism? For the most part, I believe family relationships should be maintained. There are certainly some instances where they can't or shouldn't, but if you're like "hey I'm not getting much out of this transaction of familial ties" maybe stay away from all families.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I don't know, can't some kind of true emotional connection be a reasonable requisite? I'm not talking about money or something.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:37 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah I get that but the question still sounds kind of transactional in nature.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:54 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Not a fan.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject:  Re: 2G18 - 2: Family Reply with quote Back to top

Family, however you choose to define it, only means what its members put into it. Being brought into existence doesn't obligate you to anything if those people didn't care for you or try to make the life they gave you a decent one, regardless of their means. Likewise, parents don't necessarily have obligations to their children if those kids turn out to be abusive, exploitative, or neglectful.

My mother was abused in every way you can think of by her father from birth until she left home at 18, her siblings are all horrible and only come to us for money, and several relatives were money launderers, pimps, and black hands for one of the larger mafia families in the US, so I cut that entire side of the family from my life as soon as I could.

My parents, despite not having much to start with (especially during the 80's recession), worked hard to raise me and my brother. On the flip side, we've worked to help our parents through some difficult times, and have continued to enjoy spending time with each other in our adult lives. We care for each other, and the four of us can count on each other to do what we are able to if, somehow, bad news befalls one or several of us (even if none of us ever bothers to ask for help, which we usually don't, because we're also very prideful).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

That's intense, Mitsurugi! I'm glad things sound ok in your immediate family.

Mitsurugi CP wrote:
Likewise, parents don't necessarily have obligations to their children if those kids turn out to be abusive, exploitative, or neglectful.


This is a tricky one. You might ask why the kids ended up that way. I don't necessarily mean the parents did anything intentionally cruel, but even emotional neglect of children due to issues the parents never fully came to terms with in themselves can lead to all sorts of problems in the kids.

Still, going as far as talking about actual obligations once everyone involved is an adult is a debatable point no matter the circumstances.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
Still, going as far as talking about actual obligations once everyone involved is an adult is a debatable point no matter the circumstances.


Yeah, that's more what I was getting at, parental obligations after the kid's an adult.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

This is a pretty freaking hard set of questions.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

It's 2G18. Time to search your very soul. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

My mom's a saint. My father is scum.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

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What are your feelings about family? Your parents, especially.

Ambivalent. I guess I've forgiven my parents and moved on, mostly. I have no problem with my siblings though, I quite like them. As for my extended family, they were my lifeline until I could stand on my own feet and I will always be grateful for that.

Quote:
Do you feel you were raised "well"?

I haven't been neglected materially and I've been provided with a decent education and solid philosophical foundations to form my own understanding of the world I live in, so I can't complain when it comes to this. However, having been raised in an environment in which domestic violence was prevalent, I doubt I was raised in the best possible way. Patrick Stewart talks about this topic way much better than I ever could though.

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As an adult, do you think you owe them anything? Do they think so?
I guess I owe them for the good things they did bring into my life, to some extent. I have a responsibility of not replicating their shortcomings, at least as far as I'm concerned that's the main thing I owe them.

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Do you believe familial relationships should be maintained whether they're mutually satisfying or not?

It's a difficult question, especially when we see the impact of not knowing where you come from on some people's lives (adopted/abandoned kids, native Americans or other communities which were displaced and cut from their roots, etc.). I guess maintenance is important until a certain point in life, but that point in time might not be the same for everyone.

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How does being a parent affect your view of all this, for those of you this applies to?
Not a parent, but as someone who has/had to be a role model to other (younger/more dependent/etc.) individuals, I fully understand that sometimes people don't know what's best for their own good. Parents and their children belong to different paradigms due to the generation gap, different life experience, etc., so one should just learn to accept that no one sees and perceive the whole picture in the same way. It's important to have someone provide a different perspective in your life, however it doesn't have to be a parent (or a child for that matter). I would say developing and nurturing inter-generational relationships is important, however it doesn't *have* to be with someone who's related to you by blood or marriage, especially if one comes from a toxic environment.

What are your own thoughts on this Fei?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Yes I should answer my own brutal questions. Later. Mr. Green It's a lot to type on an iPod. Thanks for your in-depth reply!

In the meantime, check out this letter to the Guardian about being the parent of an adult. The opening sentence is brutally loaded:

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I feel constant frustration and powerlessness regarding my relationship with my daughter, whom I have loved dearly since the day she was born when she was pretty like a doll and looked at me in a very direct and critical way (already).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:57 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say I don't rally understand why parents expect anything from their children. Children didn't ask to be there in the first place, there's no reason why they should comply with their parents selfish desires.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

N A R C I S S I S M

I will not talk about my own family stuff. I've spent years trying to move past it to a point where lingering effects no longer cause daily stumbling blocks for me. #vaguebooking

They're not the worst, but I didn't realize how bad the issues actually were until I was in my 20's, and how deeply my upbringing stunted my ability to succeed. It took a lot of work to process and move past that.

But I will credit my family with supporting me in such a way as I have no debt. That's a pretty rare thing these days, especially for people just coming out of university etc, and I'm grateful for it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

I personally feel I can bring very little to this topic. Some brief anecdotes though. I barely saw my cousins when I was a child, but I became friends with a couple of them through Facebook in 2007 and I'm now friends with cousins I never used to know the existence of, plus their grown up children. I've been told it's strange for people to become friends with their cousins as adults.
My immediate family are very non-family-like. Can't really explain it but people are often surprised when I mention that the last Christmas Day I spent "at home" was in 2003.
My parents both fell out with their siblings in the early 2000's and only just last year started to build bridges (nudged by family death and a wedding).
That's something, I guess
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject:  Re: 2G18 - 2: Family Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
What are your feelings about family? Your parents, especially.


Family is weird. You don't get to pick them. That can be painfully obvious.

smeared ink wrote:
Do you feel you were raised "well"?


For a long time I'd have said yes. But actually I think there was a lot of emotional neglect in my family that has led to me (and people around me) having to cope with some frustrating personal and interpersonal issues.

I think anyone who is ignoring/suppressing their own unaddressed issues is guaranteed to instill their kids with issues. That's pretty much everyone to some degree. Hurray.

smeared ink wrote:
As an adult, do you think you owe them anything? Do they think so?


I don't think so at an intellectual level, but I have a lot of confusing guilt around this. I believe they think so, in an implied-rather-than-stated way.

smeared ink wrote:
Do you believe familial relationships should be maintained whether they're mutually satisfying or not?


No. But that said, I haven't cut anyone out of my life or even confronted anyone with significant problems I have with them. This shit is difficult. I wasn't raised in an environment where grievances were aired.

smeared ink wrote:
How does being a parent affect your view of all this, for those of you this applies to?


I'm not planning to have kids. I hope I can get to a point where I don't think I'd mess kids up too bad, for my own sake. I still don't think I'd have kids, though; that choice is more connected to us wanting our own time.


"This be the verse" by Philip Larkin nicely sums up my current feelings on family:

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

It seems like this kind of lifestyle choice is much easier to make when one comes from a family that has been "damaging" enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Which kind? Not having kids?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Among other things, but I meant more like wanting your own time. I don't know about you but I know I need a great deal of time to take care of myself. It could just be because of being an introvert though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

No, I agree. Though "taking care of myself" is not something I tried to do actively until pretty recently.

I do feel a desire for a lot of free time though, even when I don't intend to use it for much.

Also thanks for replying, reminding me we need a new Hot Topic! Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

As a relapsing workaholic I know it seems silly when I say I value my free time, although I guess it's mostly because I just don't do well with typical 9-5 schedules. I also don't do well with "short" cycles in general, so I highly value the possibility of taking extended breaks between jobs if I decide to do so.

Looking forward to the next hot topic! ruroken
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject:  Re: 2G18 - 2: Family Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
What are your feelings about family? Your parents, especially.

Mixed feelings.

Dad is ambitious, stubborn, calculating, crafty, but overall self-centered. It's a mixed marriage so he's always carried around a lot of guilt-baggage when it came to my older half brothers, which resulted in different rules and treatment for them and for me. When my little brother popped out the guilt had lessened or it was some combination of that and typical youngest child treatment. Basically, I was generally the responsible one with the short end of the sibling stick and the rewards were less rewards and more responsibility.

Mom is thoughtful, empathetic, caring, and an utter fool for dad. She can thoughtfully position herself into anyone else's position and is excellent at coming up with excuses for them on their behalf. For me, it meant that she always understood. But the flip side of this is that utter spinelessness once dad took a stance on anything. She would agree with A until dad said B and then she would agree with B. Growing up it didn't matter as much, but when I got older and I would try to back her up for opinion A, which she confided as being important, she would flip back and take dad's opinion B once he drew his line.

In essence, I couldn't really see either one of them with anyone else, partially because I don't think anyone else would put up with it.

But with all of that said, in becoming an adult spending time with them got more and more toxic and difficult to handle. I generally don't see them anymore because of this. I expressed my concerns, had a bunch of promises made, and then everything went back to the same old thing right away.

Quote:

Do you feel you were raised "well"?


Overall yes. I think I could have been pushed a little more, but they taught me well with respect to thinking, analyzing, empathizing and evaluating. Their hands off approach seems to have had acceptable results with me, but might have delayed achievements in myself and my brothers. Always hard to tell in retrospect.

Quote:
As an adult, do you think you owe them anything? Do they think so?


I owe them less than my siblings. I owe them more than a stranger. They made it clear they would rather handle their own course in life utterly independently once the kids his adulthood, rather than suffer the sacrifices that can come with the closeness than can be found from mutual exchange of favours and kindnesses.

Quote:
Do you believe familial relationships should be maintained whether they're mutually satisfying or not?


Depends on the people. For myself and my parents it seems maintaining the relationship was more of a burden than an asset on both ends. They didn't want to be troubled with involvement on terms other than their own, and I didn't want to be trouble with constant haggling and arguing over determining what terms are workable.

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How does being a parent affect your view of all this, for those of you this applies to?


N/A.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

How are your younger and older bros doing these days?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:55 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Speaking of your bros, I googled Joel a little while back to see if I could find any music-y stuff he'd been up to. I didn't find much, but I don't think I looked that hard either. What I did find was someone's art photography work he seems to have been involved in to some degree. One of the projects involved a bunch of portraits of people, and the first one on the page was Marisa!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:48 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

smeared ink wrote:
How are your younger and older bros doing these days?


younger bro just got his first real real job in engineering.

elder bro is doing post production and visual effects. recently assisted on the unit that did the last jedi.

eldest bro is somewhere on the east coast staying away from bad influences and personal demons.

for joely music search his name in quotes and bandcamp. should be bunches from years prior.

interesting connections there... hadn't seen her face in an age. without the named label it would have taken some staring to get to remembering.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote Back to top

Good for your bros! I never knew your oldest bro, but I do remember him existing. Glad he's doing whatever works for him with whatever issues he's got.
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