SG2G5-5 European Union for fun

Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: SG2G5-5 European Union for fun

Ok, I know most of you probably don't care about that, but today France is having its referendum on the European Constitution, and according to opinion polls it looks like most people are going to vote against it.

yahoo news for those who have no idea what I'm talking about

What would you vote if your country held a referendum today? If you're from a European country where there won't be/hasn't been any referendum, do you think you should have one or do you think pikeys and commoners shouldn't have a say on such a complicated topic?

Do you think this Constitution will change anything in Europe or is it totally useless? What if some countries like France and the UK decide to say no to it?
If you're from outside of the EU, what do you think of it, if anything?

Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject:

I read the topic wrong and thought you were trying to organise a SG European reunion.
Gray get's!

FUCK EUROPE
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:24 am Post subject:

lawl SG European Union

And why "FUCK EUROPE", too many frogs moving to England for your taste??

Personally as a French + 1/4 Spanish person living outside of France I'm pro-European. But if I was English I would probably say fuck Europe too

Anyway, 'No' won with 54.87%, that's quite a lot

Netherlands turn now, and probably another 'no' apparently... Plaz, are you gonna vote?

If countries keep voting no England won't even need to vote Mr. Green

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Puppies grow into dogs that get old and DIE

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:47 am Post subject:

Well, what, specifically, do the French fuckers object to in the EU constitution?

I mean, the fact that Britain would even consider signing is confusing to me, cuz like, why formally sign the constitution of a body whose currency you refuse to use?
France is using the Euro, is it not? Why NOT sign the constitution of a body whose currency you DO use? Surely they must have a specific reason other than "We are ze French, and we are not amused by zeez goings-on"?
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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:16 am Post subject:

the Netherlands is voting this wednesday...and are probably going to vote 'no', just like the french did...
i myself don't know yet what to vote, but so far i'm leaning towards yes...simply because china is on the rise and europe can't/shouldn't fall behind...

i'm still debating however on what exactely to vote on...i'll let you peeps know how it all went

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:24 am Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:35 am Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:15 am Post subject:

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:33 am Post subject:

I see you want to get rid of me Onoes

It would be funny if the question was "Fuck Europe: Yes or No?" in the UK's referendum

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:34 am Post subject:

Haha

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Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject:

I would've voted "Hell fucking no" too.
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I hate Microsoft, I love Sony...
WaWard is back in full force.

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:

Ok, but why??

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject:

I dunno, but I'd like to keep my country's constitution in control in and by my country instead of sharing it with other countries and having to make concessions.

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject:

I think the major reason French people voted 'no' is sheer revolt : they got fed up with the governement, who has for several years taken highly unpopular decisions without bothering listening to the massive protests they raised (that, and said decisions didn't seem to solve any of the major problems, such as unemployement). Ignore someone for long enough, and ask them for their opinion on anything, the most likely answer will be "fuck you!" (or, in this case, "no", since the large majority of politicians, backed up by some caricatural propaganda from the mainstream media, advocated the "yes")

Ok, so this was mainly a protest vote due to some internal issues... But you might ask then, why did people claiming to be pro-European (and should then be above such petty national quarrels) vote "no" as well ?
Well, part of the answer is "Because if you bother to read the actual text, you'll realize it's Le Suck"
It would be rather long to explain in details, because the text itself is so long and complicated. But such length and complexity itself is already an indication something went wrong. Would you sign a contract you can't read ?
A constitution is supposed to be a clear, short text, that defines the basic frame in which a country should be ruled - the "rules of the polical game", so to say. It's not supposed to impose any specific kind of politic. Yet this particular text mixes general principles (like equality between men & women, and so on. So far so good - except they are just "advices", and the member State are not bound to respect them), and bits that rather look like laws (items you'd expect to be submitted to a Parliament before they get endorsed - some of them have actually been discussed by the European Parliament before), and consequently have nothing to do in a Constitution.
Actually, the reason why this "Constitution" is so long is that most of it is a basic cut & paste from former treaties... So this referendum consist in a choice between voting no, and keeping the old stuff, or voting yes, and keeping the old stuff, but under a new, catchier name.
What a pathetic excuse for a democracy...

Oh, and here is an interesting link (where a former supporter of the "yes" explains why he switched to the "no"), for those who can read French : http://www.ineditspourlenon.com/
The guy (a specialist of economics and politics) was part of an official pro-governemental group who had to find arguments supporting the "yes" during the referendum campaign. Although deeply pro-European, he explains he started to question the validity of the Constitution after hearing political leaders of his group saying that "as they couldn't counter the arguments supporting the 'no', they had to try to discredit them, make them look corny".
He then developed 19 new arguments in favor of the "no".
I've also read similar arguments from a law specialist. People able to go past the technical jargon and analyse the text can tell there is something fishy about it.
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And God said "I approve!!1

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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:23 am Post subject:

I have just noticed lately the internet headlines that say "French candidate humiliated by voters" and "Frenchman elected to..." such and such position. It's like they don't even get their names listed. They're just 'Frenchmen'.
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formerly known as Shine

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 9:44 am Post subject:

Ooooh I hate that when people refer to me as French Girl, as if my nationality was more important than anything else

Damn you Roy Frust

Hmm, interesting google links...

Alice, I'm not gonna start a debate on wether the actual text is good or not as I know we're probably not gonna agree on that anyway

, but what pisses me off is that maybe 50% of the 55% voted no for the wrong reasons (internal issues, etc.). Sure they might have voted no anyway, but at least they should have answered the question they were asked, not another one. Sadly it's things like those that make me want to live abroad rather than in France

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:32 am Post subject:

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject:

Is there any country where people vote rationally, anyway ? (I mean, seriously ?)
Internal issues are one thing (and even if I don't really approve of that kind of reasoning, god knows I understand the people's current frustration and anger at the government), but in other countries, people didn't particularly vote for or against the Constitution either, but for or against the EU, which are two entirely different things.
It's not as if the votes will matter that much, anyway. The Constitution has become a fait accompli. Like they said : there is no B Plan. Well, after being told that, I think French people also wanted to remind politicians who the power belongs to in a democracy, and that things don't always go according to the plan.

Concerning the text, I think there are some good things mixed with bad things in it. Some parts have been added in it which should simply not be there (what does regulations on agriculture and fishing have to do in a Constitution ?!?). Feels like a troyan horse, passing potentially controversial laws without having to consult the Parliament, by wrapping them up in some human rights candy. I see this as a deeply dishonest process and sincerely can't approve of it.
A Constitution is also supposed to define the various political powers : legislative, executive and judicial (and how they balance each other). Well, it appears that Constitution tends to make the executive power (the Commission, backed up by the Council) much more powerful than the legislative one, that is the Parliament, the only European institution directly representative of the people. And the Commission already tends to abuse its current power (cf. the conflict on software patents)... The Constitution could only make it worse.

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject:

So yah...here are (finally) my thoughts and vote for the referendum held in the Netherlands past wednesday:

I was heavily torn between what to vote...i could've voted 'blank' but i think i would not have used my right to vote correctly...
first of all: i'm not against a united Europe...with or without a constitution doesn't really matter in my eyes...although i certainly believe that future generations need to have a constitution...albeit only to make a front against countries such as India and China!

I heard international journalists debate on the dutch voting...they said that the dutch are scared of losing the dutch way of life and that the European Constitution would control every decision we would have to make!
goofy example (and how i understand it): Amsterdam needs more houses to be build...the constitution says about infra-structure: no more than 70% of a city may be build upon! Amsterdam is restricted hereby...

I then noticed something: politicians were saying that if we voted no, we were no better than communists and extremists which translates into: "if you're not with us, you're against us!"...now where did i hear that before? o right...World War 2

then i heard a student saying that you don't hear the government talk about the negative sides to it IOW not informing us, but just making propaganda for the Constitution...and that's what a government is supposed to do...they should ultimately inform us of both sides and let us form our own opinions!

Then there are a lot of people still pissed off about what happened here with the introduction of the Euro: just a few days before the referendum it got out that dutch banking made a huge error with the conversionrate: they said it should have been 1 : 1.65 and NOT 1 : 2.2 ... that a lot of difference if you ask me...

As Entr0pi3 already pointed out: the people here want to remind politicians who the power belongs to in a democracy...they are unhappy with the way things are going at the moment...which doesn't mean the constitution doesn't need to be introduced!

I voted no for reasons i already mentioned above (and so did 62% of all voters in the Netherlands)...and again: a constitution is probably a good thing in the long run, but i want the government to say it like it is...and not giftwrapping this and making us feel stupid for not understanding what this is all about!
I think our politicians have learned a lesson (again!) and maybe a new referendum and better informing can make this Constitution work!

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the explanation, it's always difficult to know what to think of what journalists say...

Now what I wonder is, what now? With France, Netherlands and the UK voting against the Constitution, and maybe other countries, what's going to happen? Are they simply going to ask us again in 2006 before the final ratifying deadline? Are they gonna admit it's dead and start working on a new one?

And wtf@that Euro error?

If it's true it would explain the inflation++ and stability problems....

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject:

i heard that if 6 countries vote no...the constitution is dead...
if they work on a new one and inform us in plain words what it means for us then they have my approval of a new referendum...

(wow, that "no-voters are nothing better than communists and extremists" remark still pisses me off

)

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:

The first country to vote was Spain and they rejected it, so you could say that the treaty was buried by that alone. Second being the xenophobic French (at least thats what the stereotypes say) , was there any doubt that the constitution would ever get a fair chance no matter what propaganda was used?

I think the people of all the countries voting would rather the power to control important elements like military and tax stay inside their country. Admittedly, the constitution was changed to allow more freedom for each country in these areas, though I do not believe that the people will fully understand this.

As for Europe falling behind China? Europe would do a lot better if it worked together. But there are certain countries that do not want to let go of the old way of doing things, and move to a more effiecient system.
Its a fact that if only the UK, France and Germany worked together, they would be economically more powerful than the US.
However, I believe that China has developed too late. The markets are in place. The banks are controlled by Europe, trade is controlled mainly by the american wealth machine. If China gets too powerful countries in these areas can just simply shut them out. No doubt target another second world country to build up then block in the same way.

Had England had a vote for Europe. I would have voted 'YES'.
Why? Because we are all human... yes even the French! We should start acting like we are one people, not fracturing over petty quarels like borders and politics (both caused by estranged histories).

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject:

Before stating an opinion, please get your facts straight: the first country to reject the Constitution was France, soon followed by Netherlands. Spain had a referendum on February 20th 2005, and the "yes" won with 77% of the votes (there was 57.7% of abstention, though). And several other countries had already voted yes:
- Germany on May 27th 2005
- Austria on May 25th 2005
- Greece on April 19th 2005
- Hungaria on December 20th 2004
- Italia on April 6th 2005
- Lituania on November 11th 2004
- Slovakia on May 11th 2005
- Slovenia on Februrary 1st 2005
...
I don't know where you got the idea that Spain voted "no". Maybe the Bristish media was partial against the Constitution right from the beginning, and wanted it to be dead before anything was really decided?

You're quite misinformed on the French opinion on Europe, too: although there are some xenophobic French, the vast majority of French are pro-European (and anti-xenophobia, anti-racism) at heart. They're the same people who went demonstrating in the street by millions when the far right xenophobic candidate passed the 1st turn during the last presidential elections. 20% of support to a far-right party in a presidential election is too much for my taste, but at the same time, 80% of the French voters said no to racism and xenophobia, back then.
Contrary to the UK (famous for their euroscepticism), France has been a strong supporter of the European Union, ever since its creation. The French didn't vote against Europe, but against the European constitution (and against the people who supported it)
Just because something has "European" written on it doesn't mean we should support it. Even among pro-Europeans, not everyone has the same opinion on what Europe should be. The European council wanted patents on software, while the European parliament rejected it, for instance. In the same way, many French people feel European (especially among the anti-nationalist left-wingers. Nothing new here...), but felt the Constitution wasn't leading Europe in the right direction.
Some French people do reject Europe itself, but it has little to do with History and politic quarrels. No particular European nation is seen as the enemy. The reasons are rather strictly economical: it's more of a general fear of some unfair competition (from countries with a lower level of living, like Poland) on the job market. (+ some racism involved when it comes to decide whether Turkey should enter the UE or not, of course...)

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:35 am Post subject:

Alice, I'm not sure you should reply when people like Mike are trolling in dead threads...

Anyway, which country voted last, I believe it was Luxembourg?

Ooooh my current flatmate is Polish btw

(born in France, but both her parents are/were Polish...)